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 #17 (permalink) Sat Jul 01, 2006 12:24 pm Learning a posh British accent |
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| Englishuser wrote: |
| By the way, I think that it's a bit interesting that American people tend to be quite bad at noticing differences in different British accents. |
The same probably holds true for the British and other nations as regards American (and other) accents. This is absolutely normal and logical, wouldn't you say?
In fact, how can you be good at differentiating accents if you have not been previously exposed to all of them?
| Englishuser wrote: |
| I've had some American ESL teachers listen to recordings of Queen Elizabeth II's speech, and many of them told me that it sounds the same as the English you hear on BBC. Surprising, isn't it? |
Not so surprising any more, Englishuser. Bear in mind that Queen Liz’s accent is supposed to have changed over the years. According to BBC News, “her English is drifting down the social hierarchy” or, in plain language, becoming less posh.
| Quote: |
| They compared recordings from the 1950s and the 1980s with the standard accent of southern Britain, as spoken by female BBC broadcasters. (...) In the Queen's Christmas broadcasts of the 1950s, for example, the word "had" almost rhymed with "bed". But 30 years later "had" migrated halfway to the standard southern English pronunciation, which rhymes with "bad". |
Anyway, although “younger members of the Royal Family, such as Prince William, have been heard to use glottal stops”, “the Queen is not likely to start dropping her aitches”! |
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Conchita
Language Coach
Joined: 26 Dec 2005
Posts: 2826
Location: Madrid, Spain
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| #18 (permalink) Sat Jul 01, 2006 16:08 pm Reducing a foreign accent |
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| Conchita wrote: |
| Yankee wrote: |
All I can say is, for $216.33 an hour, it had better be awful gosh dang posh!  |
Don't forget 'ghastly'! 'Awful' and 'gosh' are very much part of my vocabulary  , but I had never heard 'dang' before! Since we're at it, are there any other terms that sound very posh to you?
A popular theory about the source of the term 'posh':
http://www.the-old-sea-dog.net/uk13.html |
That's an intersting link, Conchita. I bet Cap'n Jan will find it interesting, too. Unless, as a sailor, he's already aware of it, that is. 
I used "awful gosh dang" because for me that language is about as far from "posh" as you can get.  On the other hand, saying "gosh dang" is theoretically less offensive or more polite than saying what it really means. But, hey, who are we kidding (other than the forum software)?
Amy |
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Yankee
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 16 Apr 2006
Posts: 8265
Location: USA
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| #19 (permalink) Sun Jul 02, 2006 1:26 am Accents, accents, accents... And some vocabulary |
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Hi,
| Quote: |
| Amy wrote: I used "awful gosh dang" because for me that language is about as far from "posh" as you can get. On the other hand, saying "gosh dang" is theoretically less offensive or more polite than saying what it really means. But, hey, who are we kidding (other than the forum software)? |
Who are you kidding apart from forum software?
| Quote: |
| Conchita wrote: Not so surprising any more, Englishuser. Bear in mind that Queen Liz’s accent is supposed to have changed over the years. According to BBC News, “her English is drifting down the social hierarchy” or, in plain language, becoming less posh. |
It has change, of course, just like anybody else's accent, but it's still far from a BBC accent. For those of you who haven't heard Queen Elizabeth speak too recently, I can suggest the below link: http://www.royal.gov.uk. Then go to "Media centre" and "Video and audio". Over there, you can listen to Queen Elizabeth's Mansion House speech. Please let me know what you think: is Her Majesty's accent close to a BBC accent? |
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Englishuser
I'm here quite often ;-)
Joined: 06 Jun 2006
Posts: 806
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| #20 (permalink) Sun Jul 02, 2006 13:10 pm Reducing a foreign accent |
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| Yankee wrote: |
| I was well aware of what you meant by "foreign accent". But I also think it's relevant to consider just how many "native" English accents there are. And that each of them is "foreign" to the speakers of the other "versions". How many Brits might incorrectly identify someone from Canada as coming from the USA based on accent alone? How many Brits can correctly identify a South African accent? If someone from Britain couldn't identify an accent as being South African, would they then simply assume "non-native speaker"? And if that assumption were made, then you'd have a native speaker in the same boat as a very proficient non-native speaker. And then? |
Detroit, Michigan, and Windsor, Ontario, are only two minutes apart, but their accents are glaringly different. The residents of both cities can hear the difference immediately, but people from Scotland can't hear it at all and think we alll sound American.
Native English speakers from South Africa are generally mistaken for Australians by native English speakers all over the world. The English came to both countries around the same time, from more or less the same places, so the accents are similar. People from East London are often mistaken for Australians too. |
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Jamie (K)
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 5334
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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| #21 (permalink) Sun Jul 02, 2006 13:39 pm Reducing a foreign accent |
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| Englishuser wrote: |
| Besides, I think that Americans who ask you from what part of England you are quite obviously think that you have something of a British accent. |
It's possible they're being diplomatic. If they hear an almost-British accent that has a foreign tinge to it, then it's much more polite to ask, "What part of England are you from?" than to say, "You have a foreign accent. Where do you come from?"
In the Czech Republic, people used to ask me, "Are you Czech?" With all the mistakes I made, it should have been pretty obvious I wasn't Czech, but this apparently was a more pleasant question to them than to tell me my Czech wasn't perfect and to ask where I was from.
| Englishuser wrote: |
| What is more, even when you tell some Americans that you are from a European country (that is not English speaking), they may ask you if English is the language of the country (probably owing to one's English proficiency). |
Sometimes they are just ignorant of geography. A woman with a university education used to ask me on my job, "Is Amsterdam a city or a country?" which would be followed up by, "What about Denmark?" She was not unusual. Asking if English is the languge of your country doesn't have to be a tribute to one's excellent English prowess, but just an indication of the American's ignorance.
And don't forget, English is the official language of Nigeria, and one of the official languages if India, but there's no mistaking people from those countries for native speakers. |
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Jamie (K)
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 5334
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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Yankee
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 16 Apr 2006
Posts: 8265
Location: USA
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| #23 (permalink) Sun Jul 02, 2006 13:50 pm Accents, accents, accents... And some vocabulary |
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| Englishuser wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Conchita wrote: Not so surprising any more, Englishuser. Bear in mind that Queen Liz’s accent is supposed to have changed over the years. According to BBC News, “her English is drifting down the social hierarchy” or, in plain language, becoming less posh. |
It has change, of course, just like anybody else's accent, but it's still far from a BBC accent. For those of you who haven't heard Queen Elizabeth speak too recently, I can suggest the below link: http://www.royal.gov.uk. Then go to "Media centre" and "Video and audio". Over there, you can listen to Queen Elizabeth's Mansion House speech. Please let me know what you think: is Her Majesty's accent close to a BBC accent? |
I still hear a few accents almost exactly like that one on the BBC. It could be slightly different, but as we say, it's close enough for jazz. The difference is not large enough for anybody to really care about or bother noticing.
I didn't understand her jokes until she quoted Groucho Marx. Before that point, I wondered how the audience knew they were supposed to laugh. The fact that she used the Groucho Marx quip, however, shows that anglophone culture is one more or less unified entity. |
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Jamie (K)
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 5334
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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| #24 (permalink) Sun Jul 02, 2006 13:59 pm Reducing a foreign accent |
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| Jamie (K) wrote: |
| In the Czech Republic, people used to ask me, "Are you Czech?" With all the mistakes I made, it should have been pretty obvious I wasn't Czech, but this apparently was a more pleasant question to them than to tell me my Czech wasn't perfect and to ask where I was from. |
Hi Jamie
During my first few years in Germany, I often got the question "Are you from France?" as a reaction to my prowess (or lack thereof ) in speaking German.
Amy |
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Yankee
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 16 Apr 2006
Posts: 8265
Location: USA
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| #25 (permalink) Mon Jul 03, 2006 4:44 am Reducing a foreign accent |
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| Quote: |
| Jamie wrote: It's possible they're being diplomatic. If they hear an almost-British accent that has a foreign tinge to it, then it's much more polite to ask, "What part of England are you from?" than to say, "You have a foreign accent. Where do you come from?" |
Jamie, it'd be very nice to know why you're so anxious to point out on possibilities like this. You already wrote about a former student of yours who sounded completely British to you. Do you think that she's the only person alive who has an accent like that (as a non-native speaker)? You certainly have a good point, but I must say that it's much less likely to make sense if you hear comments like that all the time in the US. |
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Englishuser
I'm here quite often ;-)
Joined: 06 Jun 2006
Posts: 806
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| #26 (permalink) Mon Jul 03, 2006 5:31 am Reducing a foreign accent |
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| Englishuser wrote: |
| Jamie, it'd be very nice to know why you're so anxious to point out on possibilities like this. You already wrote about a former student of yours who sounded completely British to you. Do you think that she's the only person alive who has an accent like that (as a non-native speaker)? You certainly have a good point, but I must say that it's much less likely to make sense if you hear comments like that all the time in the US. |
People who speak like this are extremely rare. They are much more rare than people who narcissistically believe that the native speakers' comments are meant literally. I see many more people with obvious foreign accents who attract this sort of remark than I do people whose English really does sound native. |
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Jamie (K)
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 5334
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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| #27 (permalink) Mon Jul 03, 2006 5:45 am Reducing a foreign accent |
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I should mention also that I'm a sort of freakishly good accent mimic, and my accent can fool people into thinking I'm a native speaker of this language or that, but people don't think I'm a native for more than a minute or so, because other defects tip them off. From defects in your own written English, it's pretty obvious that people would detect you as a foreigner in much the same way.
The main measure of whether or not people think you have native-sounding speech is not when they ask you if you're a native speaker, because that can just be diplomacy. The real indication comes from subtler things. Do people automatically expect you to know esoteric, culture-bound things that you don't know? Do they treat you as stupid when you don't know something, instead of treating you as a visitor? Do they answer your questions inappropriately because they assume you have background or vocabulary knowledge that you don't have? Do they look you up and down wondering if you're retarded or have had an accident? These are better indications that one has a native-sounding accent than some diplomatic question about one's native country.
Now that I've explained why I'm "so anxious to point out possibilities like this" (it sounded almost like an accusation of some psychological defect), I'd like to know why you have such anxiety about revealing your native language after having been kindly asked several times by several people. That's a more interesting mystery. You must be ashamed of it. |
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Jamie (K)
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 5334
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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| #28 (permalink) Mon Jul 03, 2006 6:16 am Reducing a foreign accent |
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In Chicago ,a man living since at least 30 years in the city,
coming to the States in his adolescence, being on the University in America,had told something like this.That, it is still possible for some people to hear a slight Polish lilt or tune in his talks,and in his accent.
Of course not for everybody but some guys in States were able to guess it just after 10-15 minutes conversation(or guess with astonish sureness).
I don't know what you may say about it, but his English
for a common man would be a pure American just nothing more except that
Regards
Colonel Jan
KGB Linguistics Department Moscow |
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Jan
I'm here quite often ;-)
Joined: 01 Apr 2006
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Conchita
Language Coach
Joined: 26 Dec 2005
Posts: 2826
Location: Madrid, Spain
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| #30 (permalink) Mon Jul 03, 2006 14:11 pm What is the purpose of this forum? |
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| Quote: |
| Jamie wrote: From defects in your own written English, it's pretty obvious that people would detect you as a foreigner in much the same way. |
Why do you comment on my writing like this? I don't see any reason for why you should make this all personal. I'd also like to emphasize that not all native speakers of English are professional linguists: many native speakers do actually make a lot of grammar mistakes in their speech. Not to mention mistakes found in native speakers' written works. When it comes to detecting me as a foreigner owing to defects in my written English, I can assure you that it is very rare. I'm quite sure that had you been present when people assumed me to be a native speaker you would know what I mean.
All the best. |
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Englishuser
I'm here quite often ;-)
Joined: 06 Jun 2006
Posts: 806
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| Let's thank our teachers on teacher's day | How can one learn to Speak English in a proper way, if there is noone with him? |
