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 #32 (permalink) Mon Jul 03, 2006 14:24 pm What is the purpose of this forum? |
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| Englishuser wrote: |
| Why do you comment on my writing like this? I don't see any reason for why you should make this all personal. |
A large component of your threads is your belief that you speak native-like "prestige" English that Americans supposedly believe to be British. You seem to have a lot emotionally invested in this (besides evidently being ashamed of your own nationality). I have pointed out that when an American asks if someone is British, or says they speak British English, it usually doesn't mean that they really think the person is British or speaks British English, and I've given you examples of how people can recognize a non-native speaker even if his or her accent is good. It didn't bother me to point out that I have these defects in my German, Czech or French, but it apparently bothers you to have it pointed out that you have these defects in your English. But you do.
| Englishuser wrote: |
| I'd also like to emphasize that not all native speakers of English are professional linguists: many native speakers do actually make a lot of grammar mistakes in their speech. Not to mention mistakes found in native speakers' written works. |
But they generally do not make the same mistakes that foreigners make. This is why we can't use the same English placement tests for native speakers and non-native speakers, and it's also why Americans can usually tell whether someone is a non-native speaker or a native speaker making a mistake.
| Englishuser wrote: |
| I'm quite sure that had you been on present when people assumed me to be a native speaker you would know what I mean. |
You see, there is one of your foreigner mistakes. It's a mistake a native speaker would never make. |
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Jamie (K)
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 5334
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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| #33 (permalink) Mon Jul 03, 2006 14:34 pm Native speaker or not |
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| Englishuser wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Jamie wrote: The real indication comes from subtler things. Do people automatically expect you to know esoteric, culture-bound things that you don't know? Do they treat you as stupid when you don't know something, instead of treating you as a visitor? Do they answer your questions inappropriately because they assume you have background or vocabulary knowledge that you don't have? Do they look you up and down wondering if you're retarded or have had an accident? |
There are many cultural differencies amongst native speakers of English as the language is spoken in so many parts of the world. Therefore an American person might well think that you're a native speaker but yet a visitor in the United States. Of course Americans speak differently to people that they think of as native speakers than to people with very poor English skills. This is something that's very easy to notice. And, like you said, it also depends on for how long you speak. You might sound native-like for five minutes, but foreign after that (or when you're tired, for instance). |
My point is that a foreigner who has a really excellent accent will be more frequently treated as a mentally impaired native than as a foreigner. He won't be complimented on his excellent language, but treated as if there were something wrong with him. This happened to me frequently in Germany, because people couldn't figure out why a "German" would ask such stupid questions that everybody knows the answer to, or when I didn't know how to do simple things like how to use a pay phone. If I were detected as a foreigner, people would have helped me and diplomatically asked, "Are you German?" (I am asked that frequently, even after having made obvious foreigner mistakes. It really means, "Why can you speak German?") If my speech sounded native, the person I asked for help was liable just to stare at me for a couple seconds, laugh and walk away. A friend's German mother said, "It's a great compliment to your German that they treat you like an idiot!" |
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Jamie (K)
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 5334
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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| #34 (permalink) Mon Jul 03, 2006 14:34 pm Personal information (?) |
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| Quote: |
| Jamie wrote: Now that I've explained why I'm "so anxious to point out possibilities like this" (it sounded almost like an accusation of some psychological defect), I'd like to know why you have such anxiety about revealing your native language after having been kindly asked several times by several people. That's a more interesting mystery. You must be ashamed of it. |
I'm not accusing you of any psychological defect, however, I do think that you're a bit "careless" and insensitive in many of your posts. For instance, there is no reason whatsoever for you to comment on my language skills specificly: I prefer a discussion taking place on a general and theoretical level. In other words, your posts tend to be slightly provoking. I personally do not mind, but many other users might feel less comfortable browsing the forums if people post replies like this. Why do you choose to write like this? There are more polite ways of expressing one's thoughts.
I'd be more than pleased to tell you all more about my background, providing that you'd be polite and courteous in your replies. As long as you keep analysing my English on a personal level I will be very uncomfortable discussing my background with you. Although I'm sure you'd be very surprised if I told you more about my experiences with English. I kindly ask you to be a bit more respectful in your posts. |
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Englishuser
I'm here quite often ;-)
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| #35 (permalink) Mon Jul 03, 2006 14:41 pm Foreigner mistake |
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| Quote: |
Jamie quotes Englishuser: I'm quite sure that had you been on present when people assumed me to be a native speaker you would know what I mean.
Jamie wrote: You see, there is one of your foreigner mistakes. It's a mistake a native speaker would never make. |
I definitely agree with you: it looks like a typical foreigner's mistake, and I would recognise it as one myself. But you seem to forget that some mistakes occur when you change your mind and then just forget to read what you've written earlier in the sentence. |
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Englishuser
I'm here quite often ;-)
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| #36 (permalink) Mon Jul 03, 2006 14:48 pm Jamie's text |
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| Quote: |
| Jamie wrote: A large component of your threads is your belief that you speak native-like "prestige" English that Americans supposedly believe to be British. You seem to have a lot emotionally invested in this (besides evidently being ashamed of your own nationality). |
Are you a psychiatrist, Jamie? If not, why do you continue posting replies like this? Your assumption is correct, but only to an extent. It is true that I find it important to speak English as correctly as possible. It's also true that I believe that some Americans have placed me for a Brit. But I do not think that I speak a native-sounding "prestige" English. I can often hear my mistakes, so I know that my accent is all but perfect. And I can also spot mistakes in my writing. I do, however, believe that I can achieve native-like sounds tolerably well, and hopefully I'll be more native sounding some day in the future. |
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Englishuser
I'm here quite often ;-)
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| #37 (permalink) Mon Jul 03, 2006 16:43 pm A native-like accent |
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Jamie,
As you so often remind me of the fact that native speakers of English are excellent at detecting foreign accents of English, I'd like to emphasize that a person can, indeed, achieve a native-like accent. Quite recently, I did attend a lecture that was given by a French man with an excellent American (or American sounding?) accent. American linguists that were present did not pick up on anything foreign in his accent. So, if you can learn a General American accent very well, you can learn an RP accent just as well. And most Americans are not familiar enough with British English to be able to point out on minor faults in a British sounding accent. |
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Englishuser
I'm here quite often ;-)
Joined: 06 Jun 2006
Posts: 806
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| #38 (permalink) Mon Jul 03, 2006 16:45 pm Native speaker or not |
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| Englishuser wrote: |
| There are many cultural differencies amongst native speakers of English as the language is spoken in so many parts of the world. Therefore an American person might well think that you're a native speaker but yet a visitor in the United States. Of course Americans speak differently to people that they think of as native speakers than to people with very poor English skills. This is something that's very easy to notice. And, like you said, it also depends on for how long you speak. You might sound native-like for five minutes, but foreign after that (or when you're tired, for instance). |
Hi Englishuser
It's not really a question of whether an American thinks of a person as a "native speaker" versus a "person with very poor English skills". Rather, it's a question of whether an American judges the person he/she is talking to as reasonably fit in the language. And this really has very little to do with accent. Just take Henry Kissinger as an example. He has never lost his heavy German accent even though he immigrated to the USA at the age of 15, has his PhD from Harvard and has lived in the USA for close to 70 years. If a native speaker met Henry Kissinger without realizing who he was, the accent alone would most likely trigger some kind of "Where are you from" question at some point. But, at the same time, it would be obvious that speaking English with Henry Kissinger is not a problem.
But you don't have to have the same command of English as Henry Kissinger for a native speaker to simply assume that you are proficient in English and "forget" that you're not a native speaker. Many native speakers over-estimate the proficiency of non-native speakers, despite a noticeable accent and despite grammatical errors. I have been witness to this for years in my work. And this does not happen exlusively in the USA. If a non-native speaker is reasonably fluent and understandable, his/her non-native speaker status will be promptly relegated to to a far-away corner in the minds of his/her native speaker friends and colleagues. They simply accept that this person can speak English. Period. And therefore the non-native speaker status will be a "non-issue" for the native speakers. In other words, the non-native speaker's English has been accepted as understandable and adequate. This acceptance may, however, remain very much an issue for the non-native speaker in that it may be difficult to keep up in conversations and/or not everything will be understood.
If you have been taught "British" pronunciation, and then visit the USA, it is only natural to expect Americans to hear the "British sound". That does not automatically mean that an American will assume that you're a native speaker. That sort of possible assumption would depend also on your being extremely proficient in all aspects of the language. If an American tells you "You sound just like a Brit" they're simply telling you that your accent doesn't sound "American". As you mentioned, most people are not linguistics experts. Therefore, they can only generalize.
To my mind, Englishuser, you're barking up the wrong tree in your apparent search for accent perfection. While I also find accents and discussions of accents interesting, there simply is no one "correct" or "best" accent. I commend non-native speakers who manage to achieve native sounding accents. That is quite a remarkable acheivement. But a "flawless" accent is in most cases neither necessary nor possible.
You gave a link to the Queen's Mansion House speech earlier in this thread and wanted to know what others thought. Well, she sounds "very British" and speaks unnaturally slowly.  I also noticed that her pronunciation of the letter O is very similar to the pronunciation in Philadelphia. Words ending in Y sound peculiar to me as does the word "here", for example. I also found and listened to a recording of the Queen from 1957. I don't know what all the hoopla about a change in the Queen's "accent" is supposed to be about. To me she mainly sounds younger in the 1957 recording. I'd be interested in hearing what exactly you (or anybody else) hears as a significant change. And also why it matters.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/bigpicture/queen/
Click on "The Queen's 1957 televised address to Canada"
Amy |
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Yankee
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| #39 (permalink) Mon Jul 03, 2006 18:44 pm Native speaker or not |
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| Quote: |
| Amy wrote: It's not really a question of whether an American thinks of a person as a "native speaker" versus a "person with very poor English skills". Rather, it's a question of whether an American judges the person he/she is talking to as reasonably fit in the language. And this really has very little to do with accent. |
Yes, of course. I totally agree with you. I tried to make the same point earlier, you just expressed it in a much more elegant way. Still, I think that a very strong accent (even though you'd use a grammatical English) sometimes makes people think that you're less educated or smart than other people. That's why accent reduction courses are so important for all of us who try to communicate in English as a Second Language.
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| Amy wrote: If you have been taught "British" pronunciation, and then visit the USA, it is only natural to expect Americans to hear the "British sound". That does not automatically mean that an American will assume that you're a native speaker. |
Jamie has made this very clear in his posts. And, once again, I agree. I'm just trying to tell you that some people can achieve an accent so close to a British English accent that, in combination with good grammar skills and an excellent vocabulary, your accent makes American people think that you're a native speaker of English from Britain. I admit that this is relatively rare, but such speakers do indeed exist.
| Quote: |
| Amy wrote: To my mind, Englishuser, you're barking up the wrong tree in your apparent search for accent perfection. While I also find accents and discussions of accents interesting, there simply is no one "correct" or "best" accent. I commend non-native speakers who manage to achieve native sounding accents. That is quite a remarkable acheivement. But a "flawless" accent is in most cases neither necessary nor possible. |
Once again, I see this issue eye to eye with you.
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| Amy wrote: You gave a link to the Queen's Mansion House speech earlier in this thread and wanted to know what others thought. Well, she sounds "very British" and speaks unnaturally slowly. |
What exactly do you mean when you say that she sounds "very British"? I mean, aren't all Brits speaking just as British English? Do you think that Her Majesty speaks to slowly when taking into account that she's making a speech? Would you recommend people to speak faster than her when making speeches?
| Quote: |
| Amy wrote: I don't know what all the hoopla about a change in the Queen's "accent" is supposed to be about. To me she mainly sounds younger in the 1957 recording. I'd be interested in hearing what exactly you (or anybody else) hears as a significant change. And also why it matters. |
I'm almost as surprised as you are, Amy. I definitely think that the Queen sounds almost the same today as she did in 1957, with a few exceptions. And I don't think that it matters at all: the Queen's accent is always the Queen's accent, after all. Actually, I'm much more interested in discussing if you find the Queen's accent significantly different from other British accents. Also, I'd like to hear what you think of her accent: would you say that it's good as a "model accent" for people that are trying to perfect their accents? And how would you react if you'd meet a person who speaks just like the Queen? |
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Englishuser
I'm here quite often ;-)
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| #40 (permalink) Tue Jul 04, 2006 22:34 pm Native speaker or not |
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Hi Englishuser
| Englishuser wrote: |
| I think that a very strong accent (even though you'd use a grammatical English) sometimes makes people think that you're less educated or smart than other people. |
I'd agree with you up to a point. If the accent is so heavy or strong that it interferes with people being able to understand you, you may well get that reaction sometimes. On occasion, you might also get that reaction with lighter accents, but in my opinion, anybody who would dismiss someone as stupid based only on the fact that he/she has an accent and despite the fact the person is understandable, well, that person isn't really worth knowing or worrying about.
| Englishuser wrote: |
| I'm just trying to tell you that some people can achieve an accent so close to a British English accent that, in combination with good grammar skills and an excellent vocabulary, your accent makes American people think that you're a native speaker of English from Britain. I admit that this is relatively rare, but such speakers do indeed exist. |
I know a number of Germans who really speak outstandingly good English. Some with British pronunciation, some with American pronunciation. I can't really say for sure for what a native speaker from Britain would think about the ones with British pronunciation, but I suspect they might be assumed to be native speakers even in the UK.
But, most of the extremely proficient Germans I know still have a slightly detectable "German" accent. However, I probably tend to notice this more than the average native speaker would because of what I do for a living. If the average native speaker picked up on this sort of slight accent, chances are it would be mainly subconscious.
| Englishuser wrote: |
| What exactly do you mean when you say that she sounds "very British"? |
By "very British" I meant she sounds like the monarch --- the world reknowned symbol of Britain. It is also a sound that brings a certain stereotype to mind: it sounds like a certain class in Britain that is excruciatingly proper, frequently stuffy and often pompous and boring.
| Englishuser wrote: |
| Do you think that Her Majesty speaks to slowly when taking into account that she's making a speech? Would you recommend people to speak faster than her when making speeches? |
Yes, I'm sure that the fact that she's making a speech must have some influence on the speed, but nevertheless I think a bit more speed would make her sound more interesting and real.
| Englishuser wrote: |
| I mean, aren't all Brits speaking just as British English? |
Not by a long shot. People from the UK speak one of the British Englishes. God only knows how many there are. 
| Englishuser wrote: |
| Actually, I'm much more interested in discussing if you find the Queen's accent significantly different from other British accents. |
I find this website delightful and, to be perfectly honest, I enjoy listening to most of these people much more than I enjoy listening to the Queen:
http://www.collectbritain.co.uk/collections/dialects/
| Englishuser wrote: |
| Also, I'd like to hear what you think of her accent: would you say that it's good as a "model accent" for people that are trying to perfect their accents? And how would you react if you'd meet a person who speaks just like the Queen? |
Personally, I don't think anybody should sound like the Queen except for the Queen. She's entitled (so to speak). One thing is for sure: somebody who sounded just like the Queen would seem fake to me. (See also my earlier comments about how I might react.) That's my American point of view. Also, if you try to learn to speak like the Queen, will your English just end up sounding like extra slow "Speech English"?
Amy |
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Yankee
I'm a Communicator ;-)
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Location: USA
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| #41 (permalink) Tue Jul 04, 2006 22:45 pm Reducing a foreign accent |
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If I ran into someone who spoke just like the queen of England, I'd probably find it comical. The only time I wouldn't would be if that person really happened to BE the queen of England. I even find the way Prince Charles talks to be comical.
We've been through this discussion before. Like Amy, and as I've said in another thread, I'd assume that anyone who spoke just like the queen is probably some kind of fake.
The only time a foreign accent makes an American assume someone is uneducated is when his English is poor overall, or, as Amy said, when the listener has to work too hard to understand him. As I mentioned in a previous thread, in general Americans (and most native English speakers) don't care what accent someone has.
I think we're going over the same ground we went over a couple months ago. |
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Jamie (K)
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 5334
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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| #42 (permalink) Tue Jul 04, 2006 22:51 pm The Queen's English - and accents in general |
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Hi Amy,
Thank you very much for taking time to respond.
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Amy wrote: On occasion, you might also get that reaction with lighter accents, but in my opinion, anybody who would dismiss someone as stupid based only on the fact that he/she has an accent and despite the fact the person is understandable, well, that person isn't really worth knowing or worrying about.
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I couldn't agree more. I just think that it's very sad that you might be treated as if you were defected somehow just because of an accent. And a person can be very intelligent without knowing a word of English. Some people just tend to forget this.
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| Amy wrote: I know a number of Germans who really speak outstandingly good English. Some with British pronunciation, some with American pronunciation. I can't really say for sure for what a native speaker from Britain would think about the ones with British pronunciation, but I suspect they might be assumed to be native speakers even in the UK. |
Yes, they probably would. It's just that it happens to be a well-known rumour that it's almost impossible to achieve a perfect British-sounding accent. Of course it's just a myth: it's just as difficult to learn an American accent as it is to learn a British one.
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Amy wrote: Englishuser wrote:
I mean, aren't all Brits speaking just as British English?
Not by a long shot. People from the UK speak one of the British Englishes. God only knows how many there are. |
Of course. But you can't say that the Queen's English is more British than the English of any other Briton. I'm most aware of the fact that British English is extremely diverse in dialects.
Thank you very much for the link. I'm sure I'll find it very interesting.
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Englishuser
I'm here quite often ;-)
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Conchita
Language Coach
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Jamie (K)
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| #45 (permalink) Wed Jul 05, 2006 1:39 am Thanks for the link, Jamie |
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Jamie,
Thanks for the link. I very much appreciate your efforts. |
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Englishuser
I'm here quite often ;-)
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| Let's thank our teachers on teacher's day | How can one learn to Speak English in a proper way, if there is noone with him? |
. I'm also particularly happy because I've been miraculously able to listen to something, at last (for some, to me, unknown reason, I can't open any other audio files these days 
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