|
|
 #17 (permalink) Thu Jul 06, 2006 4:05 am British English in the United States |
|
|
| Quote: |
Jamie wrote: Englishuser wrote:
If you'd move to the United Kingdom you'd most likely change your pronunciation a bit, don't you think?
I used to think so before I had ever been to England, but now I think my pronunciation wouldn't change much. My accent caused me no communication problems, and it didn't make me a spectacle, so I doubt I would consciously change anything. |
Do you think that a British accent gives rise to conversational problems to Britons settling down in the US? If not, why would there be any need of neutralising a British accent for such speakers (apart from changing pronunciations that some people find humorous, of course)? |
|
Englishuser
I'm here quite often ;-)
Joined: 06 Jun 2006
Posts: 806
|
|
| #18 (permalink) Thu Jul 06, 2006 10:20 am 'Tomato' and 'schedule' |
|
|
| Englishuser wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Jamie wrote: Because it reminds us of people we find comical, such as the queen of England |
It's interesting that you find HM the Queen of Canada comical. And would you recommend people not to capitalise the word 'queen' when referring to the sovereign of a nation? |
I haven't mentioned it before, but I find it bizarre that you refer to the queen of England as "Her Majesty" even though you're not a British subject. It is as strange as it would be to hear a Buddhist monk calling the Virgin Mary "Our Blessed Mother".
You have to admit that the queen of England can be comical. She has that accent, she wears those funny hats (which also looked funny on Princess Diana, poor girl), etc. Plus, she didn't have to do anything to achieve her exalted position, other than be born. This always makes me think of royalty as a sort of livestock.
I see that my favorite style manual says you should capitalize the titles of national or international officials when they follow or replace their names. I just prefer not to do it most of the time, although I do capitalize the title Hizzoner for mayors I don't like.
| Englishuser wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Jamie wrote: Plenty of native and non-native speakers have mixed pronunciations, they have no communication problems, and nobody really cares about it. Issues like that are mainly in the imagination of foreign pedagogues. |
I hope that you're correct. It just makes it all easier for people who're trying to learn English. Gimson, for one, did not recommend students to switch between accents when learning English pronunciation. (I'm sure the name rings a bell by now.) And please take into account that I'm familiar only with the fourth edition of Gimson's "An Introduction to the Pronunciation of English". So if you choose to post any further questions somewhere else regarding Gimson, you should be aware of my limited knowledge about later editions of Gimson's work. Gimson used to be a hugely important British phonetician. |
Here we go with Gimson again. I'm glad to see that you said he used to be a hugely important phonetician. He's been dead a long time, you know. By the way, do you happen to believe that every word of the Bible is literally true as written? That Lot's wife literally did turn into a pillar of salt, etc.? Do you believe everything you read in the New York Times? I'm just trying to probe your general mentality and figure out why you have this Bible-thumping acceptance of Gimson. It really is strange.
I would be delighted if my students could switch between a British and American accent, or between an Irish and Australian one, for that matter. I would encourage it. Alas, every student I have ever had has had the accent of his own nation, not a native accent. |
|
Jamie (K)
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 5334
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
|
 |
| #19 (permalink) Thu Jul 06, 2006 10:33 am British English in the United States |
|
|
| Englishuser wrote: |
| Do you think that a British accent gives rise to conversational problems to Britons settling down in the US? |
Well, it depends on the British accent. If it's a heavy Yorkshire dialect, yes. If it's RP or some other more general accent, no. A Scotsman speakng standard English with a Scottish accent is also well understood.
However, speakers of very conservative RP have a tendency to use spelling pronunciations of foreign words, such as pronouncing the word Byzantine as [baiz?ntain] or Nicaragua as [nikeregyuwa], which would be very confusing to us. We tend to use an etymological pronunciation of such words here, and in the US this kind of spelling pronunciation is considered indicative of a low literacy level, and not of erudition.
| Englishuser wrote: |
| If not, why would there be any need of neutralising a British accent for such speakers (apart from changing pronunciations that some people find humorous, of course)? |
People's accents change just from their being around other accents. Most people are not as self-conscious about their accents as you are, and their accents will drift toward those of the people around them without their knowing it.
One common result of this is the accents of the "General American" speakers you usually hear on the recordings that come with British ESL textbooks. When we hear them, we usually think, "Whoa! She's been in England a long time!" They never really sound right.
One of my friends had a slight German accent for a while when she came home from a year in Germany. |
|
Jamie (K)
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 5334
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
|
|
| #20 (permalink) Thu Jul 06, 2006 12:57 pm Beneath criticism :) |
|
|
Hi
Sorry, as I am slightly sluggish I’d like to start from the starting mark 
| Jamie (K) wrote: |
| And I would have made no progress at all if my friends, coworkers, acquaintances, and even children and the popcorn vendor, did not volunteer correction without my asking. |
| Yankee wrote: |
| Expecting corrections from people who are not ESL teachers is unrealistic, especially if you're already fluent. |
I agree with both points.
As many people can’t stand themselves being impolite and unpleasant, they avoid uncomfortable situations, even the possibility of it.
Others are ready to be impolite , but too often consider correction as being too painful for you. And then also too uncomfortable for them, for their empathy.
One of my classmates – a Chilean woman – have been living in the UK for 5 years, her husband is a native British man, her vocabulary (and fluency in speaking) are now quite good, but her grammar is awful. As her loving husband never corrects her.
He did allowed her just to get used to using her improper and childish English grammar despite her permanent asking “Correct me, please!”
He just says, “I understand quite well and I don’t like to upset you.” You!!!
| Quote: |
| he seems to learn better if he can humiliate me over my German. It makes his ego feel safer or something. So, I just let him do it, and even give him opportunities to do it. I feel like I'm letting him nail my German to the cross for the salvation of his English. It seems to work. |
This technique works well indeed, and not only in language learning practice.
I’d just like to note that in this case ‘humiliation’ of the teacher is conditional and slightly ‘toy’, because it's completely under control of the teacher, it’s not painful for the teacher’s ego becasue he/she still keeps for herself/himself the parent's position. Being so skillful and mature to play teacher’s role so flexibly and edible for too vulnerable learners.
Tamara
_________________
It’s impossible to learn swimming without entering the water… |
|
Tamara
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 25 May 2006
Posts: 1577
Location: UK
|
|
| #21 (permalink) Thu Jul 06, 2006 14:30 pm British English in the United States |
|
|
| Quote: |
| Jamie wrote: I haven't mentioned it before, but I find it bizarre that you refer to the queen of England as "Her Majesty" even though you're not a British subject. It is as strange as it would be to hear a Buddhist monk calling the Virgin Mary "Our Blessed Mother". |
Thank you for mentioning it now. I think I should mention that I refer to other heads of state the same way, e.g. HM King Harald V of Norway or His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI. (I'm neither a Norwegian subject nor Catholic.) Besides, I do not think that most Brits refer to their Queen as Her Majesty the Queen, either. Shouldn't we show foreign heads of state our respect? I mean, I personally would be much more likely to criticise my president than I would be to criticise a foreign head of state.
| Quote: |
| Jamie wrote: You have to admit that the queen of England can be comical. She has that accent, she wears those funny hats |
Yes, I suppose you could say that Her Majesty's hats and accent are comical. But I also find the way she dresses and talks both charming and impressive.
| Quote: |
| Jamie wrote: Plus, she didn't have to do anything to achieve her exalted position, other than be born. This always makes me think of royalty as a sort of livestock. |
That's true. Now you're about to start a discussion about monarchy on a more general level. Like you said, I'm not a British subject, and as I see it, it's up to the Brits to decide about their monarchy.
| Quote: |
| Jamie wrote: By the way, do you happen to believe that every word of the Bible is literally true as written? That Lot's wife literally did turn into a pillar of salt, etc.? Do you believe everything you read in the New York Times? I'm just trying to probe your general mentality and figure out why you have this Bible-thumping acceptance of Gimson. It really is strange. |
I don't really accept Gimson to 100 per cent even though it may sound like that. I only gave you an example of an English-born phonetician who thought you shouldn't switch between accents when learning a foreign language. There are surely others that share Gimson's opinion in Britain and in the US, too, so I wouldn't say that it's an issue only for foreign scholars (even though I have to admit that teaching a 'prestige' or 'correct' accent often is more important to non-native teachers of English than to their native colleagues).
| Quote: |
| Jamie wrote: Alas, every student I have ever had has had the accent of his own nation, not a native accent.. |
I think you've mentioned a Swiss student of yours with an accent that sounded completely British to you. Once again, I think that this has to do with how far you want to go in definining a 'foreign accent'. If a person has an accent that no one can place as German (or French or Italian or Rhaeto-Romance), wouldn't you rather refer to it as a 'neutral' foreign accent than a 'German' accent? Either way, I don't think that a foreign accent matters at all if native speakers place you for a native speaker. And even a stronger foreign accent is acceptable, of course, but some people simply don't like to sound so foreign (it has its drawbacks) and therefore I understand people who work on their accents so as to sound more native-like. |
|
Englishuser
I'm here quite often ;-)
Joined: 06 Jun 2006
Posts: 806
|
|
| #22 (permalink) Thu Jul 06, 2006 23:33 pm British English in the United States |
|
|
| Englishuser wrote: |
| I think you've mentioned a Swiss student of yours with an accent that sounded completely British to you. Once again, I think that this has to do with how far you want to go in definining a 'foreign accent'. If a person has an accent that no one can place as German (or French or Italian or Rhaeto-Romance), wouldn't you rather refer to it as a 'neutral' foreign accent than as a 'German' accent? |
Well, well, well, now, if that isn't the most revealing paragraph of all!
Of course, I might not be on the right track. Yet, why do I feel that I'm not too far from it  ? |
|
Conchita
Language Coach
Joined: 26 Dec 2005
Posts: 2826
Location: Madrid, Spain
|
|
| #23 (permalink) Sat Jul 08, 2006 12:53 pm Beneath criticism :) |
|
|
| Tamara wrote: |
One of my classmates – a Chilean woman – have been living in the UK for 5 years, her husband is a native British man, her vocabulary (and fluency in speaking) are now quite good, but her grammar is awful. As her loving husband never corrects her.
He did allowed her just to get used to using her improper and childish English grammar despite her permanent asking “Correct me, please!”
He just says, “I understand quite well and I don’t like to upset you.” You!!! |
This kind of situation is relatively common. I know a woman from China who knows English grammar backwards and forwards, but her pronunciation is so horrible that when she talks on the phone I have to tell her to hand the phone to her husband and have him translate her English into English. (For some reason, I can understand her when I talk to her in person.)
I think I'm seeing a situation like this in the making. A man I know has a fianc?e from Vietnam who is hard to understand. His mother asked me if it was possible to arrange accent reduction lessons for her. The man told his mother, it doesn't matter as long as I can understand her. I couldn't decide if this was the response of a lover or an oppressor. |
|
Jamie (K)
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 5334
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
|
|
| #24 (permalink) Sat Jul 08, 2006 13:18 pm British English in the United States |
|
|
| Englishuser wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Jamie wrote: I haven't mentioned it before, but I find it bizarre that you refer to the queen of England as "Her Majesty" even though you're not a British subject. It is as strange as it would be to hear a Buddhist monk calling the Virgin Mary "Our Blessed Mother". |
Thank you for mentioning it now. I think I should mention that I refer to other heads of state the same way, e.g. HM King Harald V of Norway or His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI. (I'm neither a Norwegian subject nor Catholic.) Besides, I do not think that most Brits refer to their Queen as Her Majesty the Queen, either. |
As a Catholic, I would find it quite bizarre if a Jehovah's Witness, a Buddhist or a Hindu referred to the pope as "His Holiness". It might even make me a little nervous, because I'd think he was using the title for my benefit and not because he believed it.
One of the reasons it's strange for people to use the title "His Majesty" to refer to other people's kings is that most kings are not very important in the world. In the world as a whole, King Harald V of Norway is less important than the mayors of Chicago and Toronto. Being the prince of Monaco has no importance at all.
In the US, we used to call judges "Your Honor", but when I go to court to interpret for people, or for jury duty, I find that they are now more often addressed as "Judge", even by the lawyers. (I did hear one uneducated lady keep addressing the judge as "You Guys" once, but that is unusual.) On Catholic TV here, there is a show hosted by the archbishop of New Orleans, along with some lady. Fifty years ago, people on the show would have addressed the archbishop as "Your Excellency", but on this show they just address him as "Archbishop".
| Englishuser wrote: |
| Shouldn't we show foreign heads of state our respect? I mean, I personally would be much more likely to criticise my president than I would be to criticise a foreign head of state. |
Do you call Kim Jong Il "Dear Leader"? Would you have addressed Adolph Hitler as "Herr F?hrer"? It's possible to show people respect without addressing them by worshipful titles, and frankly, some powerful people don't deserve respect at all.
| Englishuser wrote: |
| I think you've mentioned a Swiss student of yours with an accent that sounded completely British to you. |
She was Czech. When I left her, she sounded something like The Good Witch of the North in the movie The Wizard of Oz. After seven years in England, she had this near-native British accent.
| Englishuser wrote: |
| Once again, I think that this has to do with how far you want to go in definining a 'foreign accent'. If a person has an accent that no one can place as German (or French or Italian or Rhaeto-Romance), wouldn't you rather refer to it as a 'neutral' foreign accent than a 'German' accent? |
By neutral accent, most people understand the standard broadcasting accent of some country. We sometimes say that the person's accent has "a foreign tinge". |
|
Jamie (K)
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 5334
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
|
|
| #25 (permalink) Sat Jul 08, 2006 15:10 pm British English in the United States |
|
|
Hi,
I think that it's up to you how you address or refer to people. As a rule I think it's best to refer to a person the way he or she prefers to be referred to, so if Jamie (K) wants me to address him as Jamie (K) I'll do so. The very same applies to HM the Queen of England: on the official website of the British monarchy they refer to her as Her Majesty, and thus I would assume that it's in accordance with the official policy of the Buckingham Palace. It's really just about respect. But if I write a letter to HM Queen Elizabeth II, I do not end it 'I have the honour to be, Madam, Your Majesty's humble and obedient servant' (as a British subject might do but which would be out of place for me). Instead, I would end the letter 'Yours Sincerely'. |
|
Englishuser
I'm here quite often ;-)
Joined: 06 Jun 2006
Posts: 806
|
|
|
| The world cup -- Alan's fun blog! | Any volunteers willing to check my essay? |
