On my hobby horse

[Alan]

Hi,

I'm on my hobbyhorse again and give fair warning that I am not attacking or carping at anyone but I sometimes wonder what speakers of English as a foreign language must think when they read something on the forum along the lines in American English we say this .... Are they under the impression that American English and for example British English (whatever that means) are different languages? Why, even in this small island where I live and have my being people living a few hundred miles north of where I'm typing sometimes speak a variation on what I would say but I wouldn't start calling it Northern English!

OK tell me I'm being neurotic or what? And if I am, I'll dismount from my hobbyhorse. Promise.

Alan
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English as a Second Language
You can read my ESL story Phrasal Verbs/take

[Conchita]

We share the same hobbyhorse, though not the same view !

Whether you like it or not, to many people (including me), linguistic differences are important, even if they aren't so for everybody. Even (I'll grudgingly grant you) if they shouldn't be.

A whole bunch of people don't even say 'American English' (I really don't understand why it grates on your nerves), but call it straight out 'American'. OK, we all know it's the same language, EFL learners as well as the next person, yet probably all languages have variations in one or different countries (quite apart from dialects and other forms of language): there's a Canadian French, a Swiss French, a Brazilian Portuguese, a Latin American Spanish, etc., etc.

How often have I not read on books: 'Translated from the American by...'. If something is said differently in a country, are we supposed to ignore it? If students ask you about all the spelling or vocabulary differences between the US and the rest of the English speaking world, what do you answer? I'd be curious to know.

Now, I wouldn't ask you to dismount from your hobbyhorse, Alan . I'm sure it's not only yours or mine, but also many other people's hobbyhorse, which doesn't mean we're being neurotic. But then again, we all are to a certain extent. Or are we ?

[Alan]

Hi Conchita,

Thanks as usual for your balanced response. I'll sit on my horse a bit longer but I'll simply canter.

Alan
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English as a Foreign Language
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[Yankee]

Re: neurotic
.
While AmE and BE are certainly both English and also far more similar than they are different, the fact remains that there are some differences in both vocabulary and usage. There are also clearly a few differences in pronunciation and spelling.

The recently mentioned usage of directly and immediately as conjunctions is just one glaring example of a difference in usage. In my opinion, characterizing this usage as "now respectable also in the US" is not only very misleading but is also extraordinarily bad advice. Particularly in light of the fact that a native speaker of "American English" had just advised against the usage.

Question: I noticed in one of your essay corrections that you "corrected" the writer's use of "cell phone". You gave the correct form as "mobile phone". Why? As far as I could tell, the text was otherwise neither particularly "British" nor particularly "American". But the term "cell phone" is standard usage in the US. So, why change it to some other "standard"? Isn't your viewing "cell phone" as "wrong" confusing to a learner who has (correctly!) learned the American term?

Just how intelligent or unintelligent are learners of English? I think most learners of English realize that there are differences between "British English" and "American English". They're also intelligent enough to comprehend that the two versions of English are largely the same. Trying to hide the differences or pretending that none exist at all would be an insult to learners of English, in my opinion.

You can tell learners better than I can about English in the UK. I can tell them more about English in the US. We can both tell them a lot about English in general, but probably neither one of us can claim extensive knowledge of possible differences in e.g. "Australian English". Shall we pretend there aren't any?

If it is not permissable to mention "American English", then I will be more than happy to shut up about that. I could either simply insist on American usage without ever giving "British English" a second thought. I could simply make corrections to British-syle misspellings, usages, etc. in all my posts. Or I could just stop posting atogether seeing as you seem to disapprove of "colonial English". Do you prefer one of those options?

Alan, you obviously have no real idea whatsoever just how tired American English teachers get of having to "defend" their standard way of speaking. Why is it not just as legitimate as "British Englsih"? While I enjoy "British English" as well as other Englishes, I am certainly not prepared to say that "my English" is wrong. And I'm definitely not prepared to lie to my students and lead them to believe that English is exactly the same in the US and the UK. They'd see through that "in a New York minute"! (And, if you don't know what "a New York minute" is, I'm sure Ms Google can help out. I have to ask Ms Google myself often enough about what the Brits are saying!)

Amy
(speaker of "Yankee English"!)
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Amy
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ESL teacher, translator, and a native speaker of American English

[Alan]

Hi Amy,

You said:

[Yankee]

.
I often say "in American English" in cases where I either know or at least suspect there is a difference. I think Tamara's post about using "should" and "happen to" was a perfect example of that. The tendency toward should is more "British" (in the examples in her post).

Why defend American English? Because people who try to claim that all English is the same generally mean that people should only speak "British English". That's why.

It drives me crazy that so many Brits question my specifically mentioning "American English" - as though it were something better hidden under a rock. When I specifically mention AmE, that is simply my acknowledgement of a difference or possible difference and not a judgment of right or wrong, better or worse. That is my acknowledgement and acceptance that a "British version" also exists.

If one of my students is being sent on an extended job assignment to the US, I wouldn't be doing my job if I didn't advise him or her, for example, to say "hood" rather than "bonnet".

Amy
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Amy
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ESL teacher, translator, and a native speaker of American English

[Alan]

Hi Amy,

You said;

[Yankee]

[Alan]

Hi Amy,

There is a young lady called Yankee
Who claims that my views are quite mankee
She reckons I hate all Am- e
But that's not true at all Am-ee
Now me left in tears with a hankee

Alan
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English as a Second Language
You can read my ESL story Sea Expressions

[Conchita]

[Yankee]

What about writing a limerick about the teamwork that is being shown in the correction of the 30/30 Challenge reports? And who is supposed to be doing them anyway?
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Amy
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ESL teacher, translator, and a native speaker of American English

[Tamara]

Amy… Alan…

If you want my honest (learner) opinion…
Reading the thread makes me feel exactly like a 4-year-old kid when Dad and Mum are quarrelling in his sight, and for the child it’s absolutely doesn’t matter what the true subject is…

For me as-an-adult-learner: the phrase 'n AmE we normally use' has absolutely the same meaning as 'American people (usually) use/say', and the difference places only in a linguistic sphere

P.S.
My old good English vocabulary in use, Cambridge University Press, 1994, freely uses such terms as ‘US English’ (“English in the USA differs considerably from British English”) and ‘Other Englishes (!!!) (Scottish, Australian, Indian, etc…), but for all that, insists that “US or American English is not the only special variety of English. Each area of the English-speaking world has developed its own special characteristics.”

And I (still) trust it (him ), as it (he ) didn’t let me down - not once - for the last dozen of years.

Tamara
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It’s impossible to learn swimming without entering the water…

[Yankee]

Hi Tamara

I've decided you'll be better off without my input regarding your questions. Your questions are getting much too detailed with regard to what is typical usage in British English. And I can't give you any input at all about slang British usage.

It's absolutely nothing personal. Since you're living in the UK, you're better off with British input.

But I will say, keep up the good work! I think you're doing an amazing job!

Amy
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Amy
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ESL teacher, translator, and a native speaker of American English

[Tamara]

[Alan]

Hi Tamara,

Sorry you felt as if you were in the crossfire. I've no wish to flog a dead hobbyhorse. I simply expressed an opinion, which is what Torsten and I set up the forums for in the first place. Look forward to your future questions/responses, comments.

Alan
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English as a Foreign Language
You can read my EFL story If you vote