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 #17 (permalink) Mon Jul 31, 2006 13:48 pm Road map |
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Hi Michael!
We seem to be not the best opponents, as more often we just agree each other :)
Where are actually strong debates? Heated contra-arguments? Flows of blood, heaps of broken lances, rivers of contradict (and mistaken :) ) words? Where, I ask you? :) :lol:
…Yes, you’ve understood my main standpoints right. As usual. :)
To sum it up :) :
| Quote: |
| the aim of teaching must be to make the learners independant independEnt and enable them to see what more they are capable to learn. |
In my understanding, a really good teacher is that who will help and encourage you to break off your dependency from ‘methods’, ‘right-wrong rules’, ‘standard patterns’ and even from the teacher him/her-self – when he/she recognises that it bounds (constrains, limits, restricts,…) the learner.
...Michael, I've written a looong post in the Alan’s thread (on the close topic) – and got exhausted :) I mean, have nothing to add to what has been already told by all of us…
See you,
Tamara
P.S.
| Quote: |
| and if I come across some differences I share them to you, so that we can (sometimes with the help of the moderators and other users) figure out the correct way of expressing. |
I agree. :)
Thank you, all forums’ people – free-will interlocutors :), administration, moderators (Amy, Conchita, Alan, Jamie, Mister Micawber - thanks you for the friendly learning environment!)
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Tamara
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| #18 (permalink) Mon Jul 31, 2006 21:06 pm Road map |
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Hi Tamara!
I didn?t know that you are that eager a battle! :shock:
Now, if this topic was intended by you to be a challenge for me I?m sory if I had failed. :oops: Also, for the moment there isn?t any bad or wrong word that I would use regarding to you. And to be honest, I dread a bit that you possibly could force your dog to beat me. :? :wink: Or are you perhaps one of those people who keep a dog but bark themselves?
Before you beat me, please let me have a look at my insurance police!!! :)
Michael
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| #19 (permalink) Mon Jul 31, 2006 22:30 pm 'an old dog barks not in vain' |
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barking??? :shock:
Hmm…
Michael, you should know that, for example, some cars are not advertised widely and/or loudly. Like Rolls-Royce :)
My 10-year-old dog is silent, as she rarely can find good reasons for barking. Only one short, big and quite impressive [gAff], if you ask for. :)
And I have been studying under her - to be silent, patient and self-restrained. :)
OK. Let peace-of-the-world be forever!
Tamara
P.S. Thanks to you for the talk. :)
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Tamara
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Posts: 1577
Location: UK
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| #20 (permalink) Mon Aug 21, 2006 16:52 pm Road map |
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| Tamara wrote: |
Hi!
In many (most) real cases a teacher or a tutor (even free-lance) sticks to particular course / program plan. So, he/she normally prepares some materials and uses a road map of some kind, often having a some distinctive ‘mark’ (exam, test,…) in the end of the course. |
Tamara, what do you mean by real cases -- conventional (offline) English classes? The vast majority of people try to learn a second language by attending a conventional class where there is a tutor who follows a curriculum. However, so far I have not yet met a person who has learned a second language in a traditional language class. Learning a second language is a complex process that requires you to change your daily habits. No matter how well structured your curriculum or course program might be -- if you as the trainer fail to make your learners change their daily communication habits, it will be very difficult for you and your 'students' to succeed.
For example, if you get your students to read the first chapters of a well-organized grammar book you might have more achieved than if you put 15 people into a room for a couple of hours. What exactly are traditional classrooms good for?
TOEFL listening discussions: Why did the young woman sit in the rear seat of the car? |
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Torsten
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| #21 (permalink) Mon Aug 21, 2006 18:24 pm Road map |
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| Quote: |
| Tamara, what do you mean by real cases -- conventional (offline) English classes? |
In a 'narrow' sense – yes.
In a 'more wide' sense, by real cases I meant:
- when you hire professionals, have some aggreement/contract, pay them some money for their job and expect some results (more or less defined in some terms) - in some reasonable time period :)
- when you follow some systematic approach (even though you’re a self-student and just use some systematically organized materials (like ESL tests at this site :));
- when you have a roadmap and clearly defined milestones (that allow you to assess progress);
- when your Teacher – 'real' or 'virtual' – takes some (even minimal) responsibility for the progress you will/would make, for time and other resources you spend, and for not exceeding your natural limitations (= not burden you higher your current ability. Not falling in 'teaching rage' -> giving you 'too much load' that can make you crazy if you follow all his/her recommendations :)
- etc.
I agree with your point about listening English and changing life habits.
I can only add that Internet-addicted people often tend to 'replace' in mind some simple things.
Typical 'Internet learners' (self-student) can make hundreds and hundreds online tests, spending lots of time – like a machine! - but actually don’t want even to think in terms of the system of English skills.
They just repress the unpleasant idea that it’s NOT an effective way and NOT a way at all, calming themselves with the pleasant thinking about the 'job done' (number of tests made, time spent daily, etc)
I generally believe that - by nature - most people need to be led – and led systematically - and only some people can go (and reach their goals) with no guides/teachers/leaders.
That’s the main reason (to my opinion), why 'conventional' classes, grammar books and systems of tests still make sense... In some sense :)
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Tamara
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| #22 (permalink) Mon Aug 21, 2006 18:47 pm How to learn english |
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Tamara, the vast majority our users have learned the basics of the English language through conventional 'systematic' classes -- otherwise they hardly would be able to find our site and ask questions.
I agree with you, most people need to be led and told what they should do, that's how a modern society works. With our website we attract people who regard English as a means to achieve goals rather than the goal itself.
I think if you sign up for a traditional English class you pay for something you can get for free elsewhere but you still pay because you lack the self-discipline of creating your own learning system. It's pretty much like with a fitness center -- you pay to do excercises you could do yourself without the machines while breathing fresh air instead of being locked up in a sticky (thouhg air conditioned) room.
How does a conventional language school measure their learner's progress? What standard do they use? How often have you met people who tell they only speak 'school English' which is a far cry from the real thing? I'm not so sure if a structured English class really can be called 'real' since it usually creates artificial situations using artificial language.
Can you really learn a language in a classroom in which most of the speakers struggle to build correct sentences? What you need is exposure to authentic dialogues -- something you hardly will find in a classroom.
Again, the vast majority of potential English learners will prefer a traditional classroom. The question is how many of them will actually achieve a level that allows them to express their thoughts clearly? As you said, the vast majority of all people want to be led. It's the small percentage of people who understand the difference between teaching and learning, the difference between consuming information and asking questions, that lead the rest...
TOEFL listening discussions: A conversation between a university professor and a student in the professor's office |
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Torsten
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| #23 (permalink) Mon Aug 21, 2006 18:57 pm Road map |
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| Tamara wrote: |
In a 'more wide' sense, by real cases I meant:
- when you hire professionals, have some aggreement/contract, pay them some money for their job and expect some results (more or less defined in some terms) - in some reasonable time period :)
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What exactly do you mean by 'hiring professionals'? How do you define 'professional' and how do you measure their performance? How many people do you know who are doing an excellent job just because they are getting paid 'some money' (again, you have to define 'some money'). And what do you mean when you say 'some results'? That's exactly what any conventional language school will commit themselves to: 'some results that are defined more or less' (in most cases it probably will be less). How do you measure a person's communications skills anyway?
TOEFL listening discussions: Why does the student need money? |
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Torsten
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| #24 (permalink) Mon Aug 21, 2006 20:03 pm Road map |
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Torsten, asking so many general questions is quite impressive (and 'pressive' ;)) technique :)
but I have no intention to defend the 'conventional teaching system' or discuss advantages/disadvantages of different teaching techniques (and teachers themselves :))
| Quote: |
| With our website we attract people who regard English as a means to achieve goals rather than the goal itself. |
Hmm… You’ve almost got my point. Almost.
You see the forum’s memberlist and can easily model the 'typical case' and calculate the proportion of users who
(1) register – with joyous yell and claim 'Wow! Now I’ve found what I wanted! I am going to learn English (!!!) – here and am happy to do that with you',
(2) send 2-10 messages about themselves,
(3) get lost…
I think this is mainly because many of them are quote young (=immature) and/OR needed (and wanted) to be led,
but can’t find here any distinctive 'roadmap' / milestones / program / curriculum. ('Learning English' is quite vague goal for immature person, isn’t it?)
And after a some time they feel that, as they’re unable to keep self-motivation from within and have no distinctive 'milestones' to assess progress (even though artificial!) - they start thinking that this is more 'waste of time' for them, than actual 'learning English' :(
Despite lots and lots of excellent materials, many interesting people here and actually brilliant teacher’s answers!
This is just my thought…
(By the way, I myself can keep my motivation high enough, use this site only as a part of my learning process (and 'conventional classes', with systematic preparation for the exams, is another part :)) - and so, I’m quite happy with the site (albeit you’ve made me homeless ;) ).
Tamara
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Tamara
I'm a Communicator ;-)
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Posts: 1577
Location: UK
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| #25 (permalink) Mon Aug 21, 2006 20:06 pm Road map |
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:)
Hi!
You?ve turned to an interesting theme here.
Torsten, what is your personal goal? I mean as you talk about self-reliance and self-motivation in learning and leadership in conventional systematic-classes? I think conventional systematic-classes are good for teaching basic skills like the most important grammar-rules and a basic vocabulary since I consider that a challenge for the business of a person and additional it might be easier to learn that since mostly in conventional systematic-classes the participants start almost ever on the same level and can study commonly. Now, communicating I consider to be an advanced form of learning as it requires obviously a higher degree of self-reliance and self-motivation. Most people who talk at this site or ask any question normally show a higher interest in learning or improving their skills of the English language and here you can lead to self-reliance, what I expect your aim to be. Am I right understanding you that way?
Michael
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| #26 (permalink) Tue Aug 22, 2006 8:05 am Road map |
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Hi Michael!
By the way.
Sometimes I read old forum’s threads. In one of them I’ve found very interesting Jamie’s explanation of the difference between
I am studying English and I am learning English. If you want, take a look at it - in the context of the above discussion of conventional classes and systematic approach.
to study versus to learn
http://www.english-test.net/forum/ftopic132.html
I agree that people pay money motivating themselves.
I also can easily imagine a person who is a disciplined student of conventional classes (even though didactic and tedious), but is getting lost in such a fluent, free of charge and very interesting place (lake :)), as the forum is.
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It’s impossible to learn swimming without entering the water… |
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Tamara
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 25 May 2006
Posts: 1577
Location: UK
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| #27 (permalink) Tue Aug 22, 2006 9:12 am How to learn English? |
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| Tamara wrote: |
| Torsten, asking so many general questions is quite impressive (and 'pressive' ;)) technique :) |
Tamara, you keep talking about milestones and progress in a rather general way. What I wanted to know what exactly you were refering to when you started your discussion about roadmaps. You also use such expressions like more or less defined which can mean pretty much anything.
| Tamara wrote: |
You see the forum’s memberlist and can easily model the 'typical case' and calculate the proportion of users who
(1) register – with joyous yell and claim 'Wow! Now I’ve found what I wanted! I am going to learn English (!!!) – here and am happy to do that with you',
(2) send 2-10 messages about themselves,
(3) get lost… |
I think what you would have to look at are statistics that show how many Internet forums pop up on every week and how many users subscribe to them. As you know most of those forums look the same as they use the same forum platform software. Signing up for one of those forums takes about 3 minutes if not less. I can't remember how many forums I have subscribed to myself ever since I have been using the Internet.
Everybody knows that signing up with a forum is free of charge and there is no risk whatsoever. It's only natural that when a person happens to come across our forum that just sign up for free -- it's a bit like when you are strolling down a shopping mall and the vendors are handing out some freebies. You might not need most of the stuff they are giving out but hey, why not snatch it up, it's free after all?
Our forum is just an additional feature to our website. It's a place to meet, exchange information, gather experience and develop new concepts. There are a few simple rules and a lot of freedom. It's a bit like a workshop for advanced students. As we have established before, the vast majority of people need to be led and told what to do. The question is what is more challenging -- working with the vast majority of people or coaching a few leaders? What do you think is more challenging and rewarding for a 'real professional' (according to your definition) -- explaining the structure of the simple present to 100 people or discussing with 3 people all the many questions that the traditional English classes are not capable of dealing with? Also, what you have to keep in mind when looking at a forum member list is that a substantial portion of all users will frequently log into the forum to read the current threads. They are learning by reading.
How many people who complete a traditional English class are capable of expressing their thoughts in writing? How many of them can type at a decent speed?
| Tamara wrote: |
I think this is mainly because many of them are quote young (=immature) and/OR needed (and wanted) to be led,
but can’t find here any distinctive 'roadmap' / milestones / program / curriculum. ('Learning English' is quite vague goal for immature person, isn’t it?) |
You know for many people who speak a Slavic language as their mother tongue, using the English articles is a challenge. That's why Alan has created a piece that contains a lot of examples that show how the articles are used Articles in English: The vs. A/an
So, when a moderator realizes that a learner needs to work on their articles we can insert that link and that person can work individually. Using the articles correctly is quite a concrete goal and its achievement can be measured. The same holds true for other areas of the English grammar.
| Tamara wrote: |
| And after a some time they feel that, as they’re unable to keep self-motivation from within and have no distinctive 'milestones' to assess progress (even though artificial!) - they start thinking that this is more 'waste of time' for them, than actual 'learning English' :( |
Our website is called english-test.net which means we focus on testing a person's English rather than trying to teach that person. There are so many traditional language schools our there -- it's their job to teach English. Once a student has completed a course in an English language school, they can come to our site and test their English to see how how effective the school program was.
TOEFL listening discussions: What problem does the student have? |
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Torsten
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| #28 (permalink) Tue Aug 22, 2006 9:55 am How to learn English? |
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Thank you, Torsten, for your, actually very sound and well-grounded, answer.
It’s really good and interesting to read the forum’s concept in your exposition.
Let's see:
| Quote: |
www.english-test.net
Free English Tests for TOEIC and TOEFL, EFL/ESL Forums
Learning English Online, Study English as a Second Language |
As I understand, the highlighted phrase is also (or mainly?) concerned the forum, whereas 'Study English' is more about using of systematic and (well) structured materials.
Right?
| Quote: |
| Our website is called english-test.net which means we focus on testing a person's English rather than trying to teach that person. |
So… We are self-learners here (in the forum), but you (moderators) are not teachers. Just consultants and guides.
That’s clear.
(But… Don't you see, how often and insisting users tend to call moderators 'teachers'? As I see, you clearly understand the cause...)
| Quote: |
| The question is what is more challenging -- working with the vast majority of people or coaching a few leaders? What do you think is more challenging and rewarding for a 'real professional' (according to your definition) -- explaining the structure of the simple present to 100 people or discussing with 3 people all the many questions that the traditional English classes are not capable of dealing with? |
Yes, this is the question that influences the forum’s concept and spirit – implicitly or explicitly.
Taking into account the necessary to keep personal interest(s) and enjoyment for (voluntary) moderators (who are - and that is clear! - high-level professionals).
| Quote: |
| a substantial portion of all users will frequently log into the forum to read the current threads. They are learning by reading. |
I don’t actually believe, it’s an effective way. It seems, that you also don’t (that directly follows from your (sound) attitude on complexity of the learning process).
| Quote: |
| What I wanted to know what exactly you were refering to when you started your discussion about roadmaps. |
I just wanted to understand better for myself, what I, myself, (1) want to get from the site and (2) can really expect.
I actually spend lots of my time here – sometimes it’s useful (in pure pragmatic sense), sometimes it’s just an enjoyment, sometimes I feel me lost or even being in a doghouse :)
You perhaps know well, how important is to make ideal expectations actually real.
Not to become disappointed.
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Tamara
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Joined: 25 May 2006
Posts: 1577
Location: UK
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| #29 (permalink) Tue Aug 22, 2006 13:40 pm How to learn English? |
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| Tamara wrote: |
Let's see:
| Quote: |
www.english-test.net
Free English Tests for TOEIC and TOEFL, EFL/ESL Forums
Learning English Online, Study English as a Second Language |
As I understand, the highlighted phrase is also (or mainly?) concerned the forum, whereas 'Study English' is more about using of systematic and (well) structured materials.
Right? |
Well, we're now getting close to beating this topic to death. Again, there are so many definitions of 'systematic', 'well-structured' and 'studying'. In addition to the free materials and the forum on our site you will find a lot of links to paid services such as Cleverlearn or products like Pimsleur or Rosetta Stone that will provide you with a variety of systematic approaches. Yes, learning and changing your habits is an ongoing process that involves different elements. When it comes to language learning techniques you might also take a closer look at what the experts at Antimoom.com have to say, especially about the value of traditional classroom based language schools. Just google the phrase why we don't like English classes and click on the second result.
TOEFL listening discussions: What is the main weakness of the student's essay? |
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Torsten
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| #30 (permalink) Tue Aug 22, 2006 18:14 pm How to learn English? |
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| Quote: |
| Well, we're now getting close to beating this topic to death. |
OK, Torsten.
Thank your for being an excellent opponent on the topic :) and for your actually great patience.
And… pardon my English :)
Tamara
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