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 #2 (permalink) Thu Jul 27, 2006 20:33 pm Systematical teaching/learning makes sense |
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Hi Tamara!
I?m not that professional teacher, but some years ago I worked as a handball-trainer. First I did it uneducated and although I myself had been experienced as player, without success. So I decided to get some education and took place in a trainer-course. Here I learned how a systematical training could be achieved and also some methods of teaching. The lessons were impressing since there had been some sports-professors teaching too.
So I could learn that my methods of training had been awfully wrong and how to teach the participants of my training the right way and having success. And you can believe me that I?ve got the license not for taking place in the course only, but had to succed an difficult exam too. You can also believe that some participants of the course, although much more proficient as player than me, failed on the exam.
Since I had taught the methods of the German-handball-union the team suddenly succeded and become champion of their ligue the next year. So I think, that systematically learning/teaching is the best way to succed on what you learn.
Michael |
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| #3 (permalink) Fri Jul 28, 2006 9:43 am Systematical teaching/learning does make sense! But... |
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Hi Michael!
Thank you for your response. And for the qualified coach opinion 
Yes, generally that’s true – if we consider it in terms of ‘goal-success’, ‘systematical training / course’, ‘effectiveness’ and ‘efficiency’.
I’d just say (to add a little stroke to the picture) that, being at school, I had a very systematic English course – based on quite good grammar books  . And my teachers were very conscientious, believe me
I have quite good pronunciation and not bad (for the foreigner) knowledge of English grammar.
But at the time I graduated school, my English was completely rubbish, as I could not use it at all. It was just lifeless and bulky equipment.
Most of it had been forgotten for the next decade without trace.
Now, when I learn 'standard English' systematically (my ESOL course), - I hope to be succeeded with systematic national tests /exams.
And when I learn it with no any system – just being driven by my spontaneous everyday interest and general curiosity (here and not only here ) - I really feel and have an adequate feedback that English becomes my second language indeed.
P.S.
By the way: do you teach your Arab systematically only? Or 'by intuition', as well? (Even though, it's 'contrary-to-Methods', I mean.)
Tamara
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| #4 (permalink) Fri Jul 28, 2006 15:38 pm Systematical teaching/learning does make sense! But... |
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| Tamara wrote: |
| Thank you for your response. And for the qualified coach opinion |
Hi Tamara!
I?m happy to be able to talk to you! Of course, I?m not a pedagogically educated as my course lastet 6 weeks only. But the base of education-rules were explained there and helped a lot on teaching youth.
| Tamara wrote: |
| I hope to be succeeded |
Tamara, sorry, I?m a bit confused  since I think: one can be successfull or can succeed but being succeeded?  I mean straightly translated into German I would understand "erfolgt sein" what I probably would translate "have happened". If I?m wrong here, please tell me. 
| Tamara wrote: |
| And when I learn it with no any system – just being driven by my spontaneous everyday interest and general curiosity (here and not only here ) - I really feel and have an adequate feedback that English becomes my second language indeed. |
What you discribed there, for me, sounds like "having learned the rules systematically, but anticipate" since not every rule or situation can be written down.
Anticipation was an important part of my trainer-course. It was said that you can teach standard-situations only. So the real situations in a match are very important too. That looks similar to English-lessons: You can be teached the rules, but the real life is something different.
| Tamara wrote: |
| By the way: do you teach your Arab systematically only? Or 'by intuition', as well? (Even though, it's 'contrary-to-Methods', I mean.) |
Hmmmm.......... That?s a difficult point. What could a human teach a horse? How to lift a leg? Or in which row it must move its legs? Hmmmm..... scratch,scratch! No, the answer is: a horse is capable to do everything a human want it to do! So the horse must teach me! Teach me what? Now, the horse must teach me how to be the leader of our little flock. Of course, the horse don?t have any interests in doing that and so I must force it to do that and that you can do systematically considerring the success. And intuition plays a role in this training, too! If the horse is really not ready to do the one or the other thing I want it to do, it is rather difficult to request that from a horse.
A Red Indian , named "Ga Wa NI Ponyboy" created good exercises to improve the regards between human and horses and show that everything is possible if the regards are okay. And also every important horse specialist (for instance Monty Roberts, Linda Tellington-Jones ......) are working on good regards, although every of them use several methods. The bad is that many people try to copy their way and often fail, since they should have found their own way instead of asking how to do this or that. But finding the own way most people aren?t patient enough as it takes many years of small success?s and fiasco.
Hope that wasn?t too much!
Michael |
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| #5 (permalink) Fri Jul 28, 2006 19:38 pm "You can take a horse to the water but you cannot make… |
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Hi Michael!
I also like to talk to you (... reading and writing loooong posts; you know )
Well…
| Quote: |
| Anticipation was an important part of my trainer-course. It was said that you can teach standard-situations only. So the real situations in a match are very important too. That looks similar to English-lessons: You can be teached TAUGHT the rules, but the real life is something different. |
Yes, this is it.
What I try to say is something like the meaning of ‘epitaph’, Bruce Lee once wrote, which says: 'In memory of a once fluid man, crammed and distorted by the classical mess.'
I mean: the more prescribed (prearranged) situations and patterns you learn(t), the less flexible and adequate you might be in specific (not standard) and fast-changing situation.
Like fighting (in the context of Mr. Lee’s martial art) or real conversations (in my case).
| Quote: |
| everything is possible if the regards RELATIONSHIP? are okay. |
Yes again.
Moreover, I’m convinced that teaching that is not based on love-and-care-and-personal-relationship-and-putting-learner's-interests-above-own-and-… is not Teaching at all.
Just training (in terms of standard exercises, grammar books or well-prepared circus show.)
Or consultation (quite possible, given at the highest level of expertise, but. Not more, not least...)
P.S. About ‘to be succeeded’ – I’m not sure whether I was right with the use ot it, but the form itself is possible and widely used.
For example, take a look at
http://www.mediageneral.com/press/2005/jan27_05_jsb.htm
(just the heading)
But, certainly, I meant 'to be successful', you've understood right.
Tamara
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Tamara
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| #6 (permalink) Fri Jul 28, 2006 22:36 pm "You can take a horse to the water but you cannot m |
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Hi Tamara!
What a lot of content in your recent post!  So I beg your pardon when I reply just on a part of it!
| Tamara wrote: |
I mean: the more prescribed (prearranged) situations and patterns you learn(t), the less flexible and adequate you might be in specific (not standard) and fast-changing situation.
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That was, what our trainer-teacher taught us. They often refered to the circumstance that many uneducated trainer teach prearranged situations and the reactions on that. They also taught us to train no defined situations but the ability to anticipate. First my team and their related reacted with astonnishment (some really got angry, as I didn?t any longer teach prearranged situations), but after a while they couldn?t pretend that the team was successful because its members became flexibel and were able to act adequate on situations! Imagine, although the team were 12-13 years-old girls (playing in a lower class) and womens handball was supposed to be boring, we had had more than 100 lookers. (just because I taught following the rules of the German-handball-direction)
| Tamara wrote: |
Moreover, I’m convinced that teaching that is not based on love-and-care-and-personal-relationship-and-putting-learner's-interests-above-own-and-… is not Teaching at all.
Just training (in terms of standard exercises, grammar books or well-prepared circus show.) |
As for horses, you cannot teach a horses to stand on its back-legs, it?s a naturally movement of horses or a compliment, if you watch a horse that tries to eat grass under a fence, you can see exactly that. About the regards, Ga Wa Ni Ponyboy says, that it depends on your position in your little flock whether you can request natural movements or behaviour when you want it to do that or not. And that doesn?t have to do with love and care, but with relioness and leadership.
Tamara, I read the article and you?re right the expression really is correct, but when I read the first two chapters I found out the correct meaning of it. Hope you don?t feel offended when I was advising to this point.
See you soon
Michael |
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| #7 (permalink) Fri Jul 28, 2006 23:13 pm "You can take a horse to the water but you cannot m |
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| Tamara wrote: |
P.S. About ‘to be succeeded’ – I’m not sure whether I was right with the use ot it, but the form itself is possible and widely used.
For example, take a look at
http://www.mediageneral.com/press/2005/jan27_05_jsb.htm
(just the heading)
But, certainly, I meant 'to be successful', you've understood right.
Tamara |
If someone is to be succeeded, they are to be replaced by someone else, who is to take their job or position.
In the sense of 'to be successful' or 'to do well', in your original sentence, you would have to say 'I hope to succeed'. |
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Conchita
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| #8 (permalink) Sat Jul 29, 2006 11:03 am "You can take a horse to the water but you cannot m |
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| Conchita wrote: |
| If someone is to be succeeded, they are to be replaced by someone else, who is to take their job or position. |
Hi Conchita!
That is exactly that what I understood from the article what Tamara referred to.
Just, I wonderred whether there is an additional meaning. For instance, if anybody becomes somebody?s heir could we say somebody is to be succeeded by anybody? In a more wide sense it seems to be the same, isn?t it?
Michael |
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| #9 (permalink) Sat Jul 29, 2006 11:49 am "You can take a horse to the water but you cannot m |
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| Fan of Arabian horses wrote: |
Just, I wondered whether there is an additional meaning. For instance, if anybody becomes somebody?s heir could we say somebody is to be succeeded by anybody? In a wider sense it seems to be the same, isn?t it?
Michael |
I couldn't have explained it better myself, Michael! Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary gives a good example to illustrate your point: When the queen dies, her eldest son will succeed to the throne. In other words, and to use your turn of phrase: The queen will be/is to be succeeded by her eldest son. |
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Conchita
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| #10 (permalink) Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:08 pm Dogs, horses, animal training |
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Hi!
Michael, thank you for your attentive patience and for not indifference to my refractory mistake(-S) Conchita, thank you for the explanation (“to be succeeded = to be replaced by someone else who…” – I didn’t know that).
You’re both right. In my context ‘to be succeeded’ was wrong and ‘hope to succeed’ would be exactly what I actually meant.
Going back to our vague ‘road map’, and writing another looooong post
| Quote: |
| that it depends on your position in your little flock whether you can request natural movements or behaviour when you want it to do that or not. And that doesn?t have to do with love and care, but with relioness ?? and leadership. |
Yes, I know… as I have an experience of ‘educating’ (and socializing) of my huge Great Dane, from her earlier puppyhood
And seem to have succeeded.
(It should be noted here, that this was my first extra-large and strong animal I taught entirely by myself, with no professional trainers who would provide the standard ‘grooming service’ and in very many cases I was leaded mainly by intuition – but! the results are not bad.
She knows all main commands and she can do almost all what an ‘average town dog’ should know, do and not do. In some ‘critical’ situations I can just give her a short command with ‘special voice’ and she’ll obliged - immediately and unconditionally. But as she is very friendly in nature and has a reliable general barrier about attacking a man (never in her life she was given a very special command that would imply attacking a man - seriously, not for play. Even though there were some (night street) situations when I felt me safe only due to her presence.
So anyone can say she is quite well-bred, friendly and steady family dog. There is no need to pull her up all the time or even keep in a lead when moving with her through a crowd (she is quite sensitive to a ‘remote-control’ and I can go ahead, not looking back at her all the time).
But in some situations I /we allow her to have ‘the right of vote’, as well. For example, she can refuse to do something (as any other member of our family ).
Michael, now a horse/dog--man context is more or less clear. As we both have a pet that is more than we ourselves, we both have a correspondent experience of cuts-and-tries:)
And we seem to be agreed on about patterns that are very and highly good for standard-and-ordinary situations. But as they stamp (and punch and press) your brain, they can deprive you of necessary flexibility in non-ordinary and fast-changing situations.
OK.
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| #11 (permalink) Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:12 pm Standard patterns, ordinary situations, (non)ordinary people |
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Let’s cast a glance at one more point. If you don’t mind
When I used the word ‘teaching’ with capital (Teaching) I mainly meant the specific process based on two main roles (teacher – learner) with clear distinction and understanding of both (unequal) positions, where a teacher, in fact, provide himself/herself to a learner as a recourse for development, almost with no limitation. As a parent does.
So a-true-teacher’s main intention is not only to fit a learner to his/her Methods and/or Way (in ‘East’ sense ), but rather to help a learner – individually and personally - to reach his best abilities. Even though he/she can surpass the teacher and then… leave him.
In my opinion,
Ordinary ('weak'?) teacher knows only HOW to teach (…effectively, efficiently, with results (= success events that are defined by marks on some standard scales, etc.) He/she is similar to a good animal trainer. Or an ordinary (average) sport coach.
‘Good’ teacher knows the difference and is ready to see, to help and welcome how a good learner becomes overtopping him/her. And permanently allows to the learner to try the teacher ‘on tooth’ (this is the Russian expression that means to test/check something/somebody personally, face-to-face, at his/her full potential and, maybe, in hard and stressful conditions. Irrespective of what ‘standard mess’ say about that.
The question is: in what degree you’re ready to admit your turning on your own top of competence/skills and let a learner go and look his/her own way, maybe, with another teachers, - when you recognised that can’t be really helpful for him anymore.
Even thouhg he/she is a good student to fit your own purposes.
This is the main distinction I would make (in addition to teacher-coach-trainer–consultant):
a Teacher vs. an Owner.
...Would be glad to know what do you think about what I think (if you find 15 minutes to read all of that and a minute to think about. Riding your own horse at this nice weekend(s) . )
See you,
Tamara
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| #13 (permalink) Sun Jul 30, 2006 8:24 am Road map |
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Hi Tamara!
I?m back again, hopefully, my PC  allows me now to write a complete post!
Hopefully that my PC is Okay again, since the whole software had been destroyed.
Now, I think you?re right saying that the aim of teaching must be to make the learners independant and enable them to see what more they are capable to learn. And that doesn?t have to do with the teacher?s knowledges or abilities but just with the capabilities of the learner. And additional to that, if a teacher have done a good job theirs formerly pupil or child will always come back or at least always keep them in good recollection. More than that: a good teacher will support his/her learner getting more education. I mean this would be ideal, but surely difficult to achieve (mostly possible for parents or in special cases).
But as I mentioned: I?m not that proficient teacher, That is my personal opinion only and finally might be right regarded to humans only.
There is something else I?d like to share to you since you thanked me for patience and not being indifferent. I like reading your posts and understanding what you wrote. As I?m a learner, too and sometimes not really get the sense of your writings, I think and inform myself and if I come across some differences I share them to you, so that we can (sometimes with the help of the moderators and other users) figure out the correct way of expressing. In this sense I must thank you for your patience and not being indefferent, too.  And also that you have an eagle eye on my posts, too! For instance: relioness?-reliance
Michael
P.S. Warning to all criminals! You?d better not meet Tamara and her Great Dane in the street in the dark night! It could become dangerous for you! |
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