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 Sun Aug 06, 2006 2:27 am Adjective or Past Participle? |
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Hi Amy,
If you think my mentioned examples are not clear, please take this example:
Let's consider "finish" only as a transitive verb in:
I finished my homework (Active voice). (a)
Because "finish" in (a) is transitive verb and "my homework " is its object.Thus, (a) can be passive.
When you change (a) into passive voice, you have:
My homework was finished. (passive voice) (b)
Compare (b) with:
My homework was finished (=over). (c)
Can you tell me the difference in meaning btw:
(b) (passive voice)
and:
(c) (not passive voice)
Right now, please read again (b) and (c). How to distinguish when "finished" is adj, when "finished" is past participle? Please tell me what is the difference in meaning btw (b) and (c)?
Only in this case,if (b) and (c) have the same meaning, I think only the verb "finish" is sufficient because only with the verb "finish", you can express the idea.
You know, the adj "finish" in the dictionary has various meanings.But only in the case where the adjectf "finished" has the meaning of the verb "finish", I don't understand why there is the adj "finished"?
Thanks
K
PS: After reading this part, Amy, please return to "which" and "which one", read and give me your opinions about my questions. Thanks. |
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Van Khanh
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Posts: 324
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| Sun Aug 06, 2006 9:28 am Passive/adjective |
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Hi Van Khanh,
I think you are getting over exercised on this matter. Remember that there are many,many verbs in the language which can take on different roles in the past participle form. These can be part of the perfect tense, part of the passive formation and also an adjective. Let's take an entirely different verb - approve. As it is a transitive verb, it can be used in the passive form.
Perfective function: The government has approved the proposal
Passive function: The proposal has been approved by the government.
Adjectival function: This proposal is no longer temporary but approved. It is an approved proposal.
I really feel this discussion has now reached the stage where all the variations have been considered. What do you think?
Alan
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| Sun Aug 06, 2006 10:10 am Passive/adjective |
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Great,
That's what I need. Do you agree that understanding is one thing and expressing is another thing? 
I have the last question for you:(Please help me)
Please read:
The play finished at 10.30. (a) ("finish" is intransitive)
We finished the play at 10.30. (b) ("finish" is transitive, active sentence).
The play was finished at 10.30. (c)("finish" is transitive, passive sentence).
The play was finished at 10.30. (d) ("finished" is adj, means "over").
So, by basing on what you have said, these 4 sentences have the same meaning, although the function of
"finish(ed)" is different. Do you agree with me? Please confirm me by "yes" or "no" in this case.
If you say "yes", do you agree that (c) and (d) have the same appearance, the same meaning but in (c), "finished" is past participle and in (d), "finished" is adj? Again, please confirm me by "yes" or "no".
If you don't agree with the examples I gave, please explain.
Only if you don't agree with the given example,please explain then read only the 4 following sentences and share with me your opinions:
a. My homework finished. (intransitive)
b. I finished my homework.(transitive active)
c. My homework was finished. (transitive passive)
d. My homework was finished. (adj, means "over")
So, by basing on what you have said, these 4 sentences have the same meaning, although the function of
"finish(ed)" is different. Do you agree with me? Please confirm me by "yes" or "no" in this case.
If you say "yes", do you agree that (c) and (d) have the same appearance, the same meaning but in (c), "finished" is past participle and in (d), "finished" is adj? Again, please confirm me by "yes" or "no".
If you don't agree with the examples I gave, please explain.
Have a nice weekend.
Many thanks
Khanh |
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Van Khanh
I'm here quite often ;-)
Joined: 24 Jul 2006
Posts: 324
Location: Ho Chi Minh-City, Viet Nam
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| Sun Aug 06, 2006 10:35 am Meaning |
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Hi Khanh,
I really feel that this discussion is getting nowhere. As I have said before, the use of the past participle of a verb can often be used as part of the passive form or can be regarded as an adjective. The only criterion for the past participle being considered as part of the passive is when there is either an implied or a stated agent (ie by someone/something). You can create statement after statement with examples like: The play was finished/completed/exaggerated/complicated/refined and so on and so on but if the word formed by the past participle of the verb merely describes the status of the noun qualified and there is no indication that any action has been carried out by a person or a thing, then the word must be an adjective and not part of a passive construction.
Putting it simply from my point of view I would say that this discussion is now finished (adjective).
Alan
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| Sun Aug 06, 2006 10:50 am Meaning |
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Ok,
I see
Many thanks
Have a good weekend.
Khanh |
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Van Khanh
I'm here quite often ;-)
Joined: 24 Jul 2006
Posts: 324
Location: Ho Chi Minh-City, Viet Nam
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| Sun Aug 06, 2006 15:33 pm Passive/adjective |
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| Van Khanh wrote: | a. The play finished at 10.30. (a) ("finish" is intransitive)
b. We finished the play at 10.30. (b) ("finish" is transitive, active sentence).
c. The play was finished at 10.30. (c)("finish" is transitive, passive sentence).
d. The play was finished at 10.30. (d) ("finished" is adj, means "over"). |
Khahn
I'll add one more comment, but after this I'd prefer to be finished  with this topic. Thank you!
When you compare finish as a transitive with finish as an intransitive verb, you're not comparing the same things! It's as simple as that. You also are not giving any further context along with your sentences. Your examples using finish as an intransitive verb are highly unlikely sentences and would only be possible in a very specific (and probably unlikely) context:
b. We finished the play at 10.30. (b) ("finish" is transitive, active sentence).
For example (only an unlikely example is possible): A group of us were writing a play and we finished (writing) the play at precisely 10:30.
c. The play was finished at 10.30. (c)("finish" is transitive, passive sentence).
Continuing with the unlikely example above: The writing of the play was finished (by us) at precisely 10:30.
As you can see, I do not understand the same thing in sentences b and c as in a and d.
Regarding your homework:
a. My homework finished. (intransitive) This is is not possible as a sentence, in my opnion
b. I finished my homework.(transitive active) OK
c. My homework was finished. (transitive passive) You need to add "by whom"otherwise it doesn't make any sense to write this as a passive because without "by whom", this sentence will be understood the same as sentence d. In other words, your homework was complete - and it will be assumed that you did your homework yourself.
d. My homework was finished. (adj, means "over") This sentence is better with is instead of was unless you mention some kind of time (or the end time has already been mentioned): "My homework was finished before I went to the movie."
It is my firm belief that this topic has now been explained in nauseatingly minute detail and therefore I'm finished.
Amy
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| Sun Aug 06, 2006 15:44 pm Passive/adjective |
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Hi Amy.
Ok. We are finished with this topic.
Can you return to "which one(s)" part and explain to me correct or not correct?
Thanks
K |
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Van Khanh
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Joined: 24 Jul 2006
Posts: 324
Location: Ho Chi Minh-City, Viet Nam
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