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 Sun Aug 27, 2006 13:53 pm Real |
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| Tamara wrote: | | I wasn’t the worst student, believe me… but my school English appeared to be completely lifeless – in reality. |
However, I have to say that even in that closed Soviet society, the Russian publishers of English textbooks, and some of the teachers, did a very good job! I worked with a Russian English teacher in the Czech Republic, and she was always getting trouble from the Czech teachers about issues of English grammar or vocabulary. The Czechs hated the Russians, and they thought of themselves as more advanced and cosmopolitan, which they weren't. Czech English textbooks from the communist days often taught the grammar in a strange, distorted way that was based on the Czech language. When there would be an argument about grammar or vocabulary, it always turned out that the Russian and I were on the same side together against the Czechs. This Russian lady had been taught English in a different way, and her grammatical concepts were the same as a native speaker's.
By the way, I enjoy learning Russian from Soviet-era textbooks and recordings. They are very thorough, and they are also full of interesting kitsch. I have even digitized my Soviet-era Russian cassettes so that I can use them in an MP3 player. They teach me a lot. |
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Jamie (K)
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 4227
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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| Sun Aug 27, 2006 21:46 pm Rules and style |
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Hi Alan!
Like Amy mentioned, I think, that rules of languages clear up the communication between inidviduals, forces the clearness of said or written things and if anybody is stuck up disregarding the rules they must take in account to get missunderstood. I believe, we do agree here, don?t we?
| Alan wrote: | | Thanks for a fascinating question - a bit of a poser. Now there's a case in point for starters a word with two meanings either someone who likes to show off from the French, poseur or a difficult question and I meant the latter. |
Well, as you are very proficient in the English ( I mean not only but it?s one of your main interests, I imagine, beside of gardens and garden-dwarfs  ) I took this as your way to express your thoughts. And (oops) for a correct comprehension of what you shared to me mentioning a poser I need to endeavour my brains and investigation-skills, too. I mean, if you thank me for raising that question you normally couldn?t consider me being pushy, stuck up or a poseur, right? So if my dictonary don?t offer me the due translation I?m needed a more painstakingly, meticulous reserach for clarifying your intended expression.
| Alan wrote: | | Then comes a question. Is it: It's up to you or It's down to you? Now that's a matter of personal choice. A trivial example but the best I can come up with. Or should I say: The best up with which I can come? because some joker said I couldn't end a sentence with a preposition. |
This is what I had in mind! I mean the optimist probably would say It?up to you! and the pessimist would say It?s down to you!  But there are some else examples in my mind. For instance as and since in a proving sense we talked in another topic about. You referred to the British regards of as and Amy claimed the American use of since. Since that I?ve been prefering to use as if there is a prove without temporary regards and always if I can discover any temporary regard I insert since no matter if I write in the Present Perfect or not (I have no clue whether I fail here)!
| Alan wrote: | | And (Oh, they say you shouldn't start a new sentence with a conjunction like 'and') now to my final point: as one of the original three founder members of the site and the only native English speaker of the three, I initially and I suppose I still do, have said what I personally think and have therefore been subjective but I have endeavoured to steer a course between the strict rules and freedom of expression. Above all I have preached the need for clarity as the most important part for expression. Since the first years of the site of course I have been joined by others who have admirably put their points of view and all the subscribers to the site can have a rich variety of choices and explanations at their disposal. For that reason, Michael, I think you should rejoice that there is this cornucopia at your disposal. |
At this point I, and I think all of us, have to thank you for providing such lots of solutions. Surely, it needs much more efforts to find the correct expression as if you stupidly would follow one straight and hard direction but the same time it offers a lot of opportunities and enables a thoroghful user a variable and precise command of the English.
Michael |
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Fan of Arabian horses
I'm here quite often ;-)
Joined: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 816
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| Mon Aug 28, 2006 8:54 am Boarders between supposed language rules and personal style? |
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| Jamie (K) wrote: | English native speakers do use this phrase, but it comes from Chinese pidgin English, mainly because native speakers at one time thought it was funny. Most native speakers now don't know that it came from Chinese English. We have another expression like this: No tiki, no washee! It means, "If you don't pay me, I won't do the work." Unlike "long time no see", it's very clear that this expression comes from Chinese speakers.
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Hi, Jamie:
I can't find that"No tiki, no washee" . It must be an unusual American slang. In fact, I can't find any clue to that Chinese pidgin English concerned here. Why do you say " it is very clear that this expression comes from Chinese speakers"? I feel a little confused. Because everyone would say " If you don't pay me, I won't do the work" , That isn't a typical way of Chinese. I think you mean that for other reasons, right?
Another interesting thing is, Chinese would like to translate some English phrases or idioms into what we are familar with, for instance, "No pains, no gains" . When we make sentences or write articles we use it frequently, in fact I don't know whether it should be called "English " or "Chinese pidgin English", because we use it so often and people enjoy this kind of mixture(as the second nature, I guess) , Surely, nobody cares .
F.F |
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FangFang
I'm here quite often ;-)
Joined: 18 May 2006
Posts: 369
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| Mon Aug 28, 2006 9:25 am Boarders between supposed language rules and personal style? |
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| FangFang wrote: | | I can't find that"No tiki, no washee" . |
Hi FangFang
Try this spelling: no ticky, no washy
The expression arose from the stereotype that Chinese immigrants frequently owned laundries and it supposedly mimics the language difficulties they had when trying to tell a customer "If you don't have your receipt ("claim ticket"), I won't give you your wash back."
Amy
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Amy
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ESL teacher, translator, and a native speaker of American English |
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Yankee
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 16 Apr 2006
Posts: 7464
Location: Northeast US
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| Mon Aug 28, 2006 10:27 am Boarders between supposed language rules and personal style? |
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Hi Michael,
To come back to the word poser in the way I used it. We use the expression: pose a question, which is another way of saying: ask a question and that's half way to explaining poser. It means a difficult question to answer, one which you need to think about before you answer.
Alan
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English as a Second Language
You can read my ESL story Too Many Words |
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Alan
Co-founder
Joined: 27 Sep 2003
Posts: 7278
Location: UK
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| Mon Aug 28, 2006 16:55 pm Boarders between supposed language rules and personal style? |
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Hi, Amy:
Thanks a lot!!
F.F |
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FangFang
I'm here quite often ;-)
Joined: 18 May 2006
Posts: 369
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| Mon Aug 28, 2006 23:16 pm Boarders between supposed language rules and personal st |
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Hi Jamie,
| Quote: | | …the Russian publishers of English textbooks, and some of the teachers, did a very good job! I worked with a Russian English teacher in the Czech Republic, and she was always getting trouble from the Czech teachers about issues of English grammar or vocabulary. |
Perhaps you know that the typical feature of ‘classic’ Russian/Soviet education is/was strong sticking to models. And the official models were created by quite good experts, despite (due to?  ) that ‘under-carpet’ blood fighting in the Department of Education among academicians for becoming ‘official gurus’.
As a result (and in particular), an average Russian knows Russian grammar (= model of the language) much better than, for example, an average British. I permanently observe quite well-educated Britons who have rather vague representation of the grammar of their native language. Not to mention that the vast majority of them never saw such things as, for example, classic transcription images for ‘English sounds’ ).
Certainly, such a ‘model-based’ education has both advantages and disadvantages.
You’re right: the grammar model of English I was taught at school was quite good. Learning (now) English through English (UK ESOL course) I have no any serious problem with the model.
Moreover, I am ready to admit that, generally, the ability to ‘abstract thinking’ is affected positively by the education system of such kind (even though the strong ‘model-based’ learning is obviously more difficult – especially for children whose abstract thinking is still undeveloped).
I only wanted to say that, mainly due to the education system, I have been having quite serious problems with real use of the (lively) language. In contrast to that lifeless ‘system of rules’ (model) I was taught at my school time, by the name ‘English language’.
By the way, I’m very grateful to my university English teachers (‘Technical English’, mainly ‘comprehensive reading’)). My technical English (in a specific area) is still better than my ‘communication’ English…
Thanks to all for this interesting topic.
Tamara
P.S. Yes, I meant Beatles and A Hard Day’s Night, in particular. And not only Beatles and not only A Hard Day’s Night, in general.
By the way, I remember well, that the idiom to work as a dog, which first was very surprising to me, I’ve learned exactly from the song. And at the rebellious age
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Tamara
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Location: UK
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Tamara
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 25 May 2006
Posts: 1577
Location: UK
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