Need as a modal verb and need as a function verb

[Alandro255]

It's very difficult for me to distinguish the "need" modal with the "need" ordinary verb in American English and in British in English in the sentences as follows:

1/ I don't need to go to class.
= I needn't to go to class ?
2/ I didn't need to go to class.
= I needn't have gone to class. ?
3/ Did you need to paid so much?
= Need you have paid so much? ?
4/ I need that book. (modal)
= I need that book. (ordinary verb) ?
5/ Do you need any help?
=Need you any help? ?
6/ She only needs to ask. (ordinary verb)
= She needs only to ask. (ordinary verb)
= She need only ask. (modal)
= She only need ask. (modal) ?
7/ Don't have to = don't need ?
Don't have to = needn't ?
Have to = need ?
Must = need ?
Mustn't = don't need ?
Mustn't = needn't ?

Please help me.
Thanks
Alandro

[Alan]

Hi,

You say you find it very difficult to use the verb need. Where do all your examples come from?

Alan
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English as a Second Language
You can read my ESL story Present Simple

[Alandro255]

I wrote them but I don't know when I should use as modal, when I should use as ordinary verb?

Alandro

[Yankee]

As I see it, the main difference between British and American usage is with the modal form of need: American English does not use needn't: for negative and interrogative forms we use do/does/did with need (simple present/past). I have noted everything that would be natural in American English. Where I wrote "NO", it's just plain wrong:

[Jesus1]

Hello everybody!

Just one question about the first sentence.

I needn?t to go to class.

Isn?t 'needn?t' a modal verb?

Shouldn?t it be 'I needn?t go to class'?

Thanks a lot!

Jes?s

[Yankee]

Hi Jesus

Yes, you're right. That's an error, too.

Amy
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"Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power." ~ Abraham Lincoln

[Alandro255]

1/You wrote:

a/
I don't need to go to class. OK
= I needn't go to class. ?
That means "I don't need to go to class" and "I needn't go to class" are correct and have the same meaning. Right? (I ask it because you don't tell me your opinion about "I needn't go to class").

b/

The same,"Did you need to pay so much? " and "Need you have paid so much?" are correct and have the same meaning. Right? (I ask it because you don't tell me your opinion about "I needn't go to class").

2/ Don't have to = needn't . Right?

3/She only need ask. Right?

4/ You wrote:
Must = need (to) The meanings are sometimes the same/similar ?
What does ? mean?
Alandro

[Sandypas76]

Hello,

I also have problems in recognising need as a verb and need as a modal. I understood that in AmE they always use need as a verb but I am still struglling to understand the difference between normal verb and modal in BrE, which I am more interested in.

One thing I understood there is a difference between the past of the 2 forms of the verb:

(BrE) I didn't need to go to class. ---- and I didn't go (normal verb)
For example: I didn't need to go to class after all, because there was going to the same topic covered yersterday.

(BrE) I needn't have gone to class. ----- but I did go anyway (modal)
For example: I needn't have gone to class, but I went because I thought my presence would be important. (I did something that was not necessary)

In AmE it would be the same as above: I didn't need to go to class, but I went because I thought my presence would be important.

[Jaro7788]

Hey, I'm not a native speaker (so don't take my opinion for granted) but the way I see it, in Present Simple, the difference between "need" as an ordinary verb (OV) and "need" as a modal verb (MV) is not very complex. Nevertheless, there are few words I come across less often than "need" as a MV (mind you, I'm still talking about Present Simple). To me, it's not that it'd be improper - it would just sound a bit... I don't know, peculiar?

Now of course, we have to remember that OV =/= MV:

OV: I need to go
MV: I need go (modals are followed by bare infinitives. Well, except for "ought to" but I don't even know if it's a modal at all)

OV: He needs to go
MV: He need go (no suffixes in modal verbs)

OV: I don't need to go
MV: I needn't go (you know the rule)

OV: Do you need to go?
MV: Need you go? (same as above)

And last, but certainly not least: no nouns after modals. So:

OV: I need a new car
MV: I need buy/steal/whatever a new car

But, as I said, I'm not an expert. Yet it does seem pretty obvious that using "need" as a MV in Present Simple might sound a bit strange. Now of course, when we're dealing with past tenses, it does make a huge difference.

[Sandypas76]

Hello Jaro7788,

Thanks for your reply.
I now realise I didn't formulate my question correctly.
I wrote "problems in recognising need as a verb and need as a modal."
However, I actually know how to recognise one from the other, and my mistake was evident to me because, after reading your answer (Thanks!), I thought I knew all that! Oops!

I meant to say that I don't know how to tell when I should use one and when the other. I mean, from your examples, it looks as if OV and MV use is fairly interchangeable in the present. This might be a reason why I don't see the MV form used that much, or maybe a good reason is the fact that we all tend to hear and repeat American English by now, so that the MV form will slowly but surely disappear?

I basically know when to choose to use the other modals, but the difference in meaning between need as OV and its meaning as MV is only evident to me in the past, as I showed with my examples, and you also confirmed.

So why should I say: need I pay the biil now? Instead of: Do I need to pay the biil now?

My Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary is not very clear. I'll quote here:

"In BrE there are two separate verbs need.

Need as a main verb [...] has two meanings: 1. to require something or to think that something is necessary: Do you need any help? I needed to get some sleep. 2. to have or to be obliged to do something: Will we need to show our passports?

Need as a modal verb [...] is used to say that something is or is not necessary: Need I pay the whole amount now?"

The thing is, to me they look the same!

Sandra

[Jaro7788]

As you said, your dictionary is not very clear on the matter but I think I can point out the Big Difference: the first definition (dealing with "need" as a main verb) has it you employ it when you feel that you could use something - nominally, a noun. Take a look at my previous post: you need a car, when your "need" is a main verb, but you need buy a car, as far as modal verbs are concerned. In affirmatives, modal verbs must be followed by ordinary verbs; except, that is, when you are answering a question, i.e.:

"Can you swim?"
"Yes, I can."

Do you understand now? I think that's just another reason why the OV "need" gained more poularity than the MV variant: the former is simply more flexible, you can attatch it to both verbs (infinitives) and nouns, while it's only verbs (bare infinitives) in the case of the latter.

Yet, as far as verbs are concerned, I think you just do the same thing characters in Hollwyood movies do: on most occasions, use "need" as a main verb, but from time to time, when you feel like showing your grammatical erudition, throw in some modal verb "needs". ;)