'Much' + countable nouns?

[Tamara]

Hi

Too much lines…
How much pages…

I know that, strictly speaking, this is not good English, at all.

But I have an impression :) that sometimes it allows to make emphasis not on 'exact quantity' (not asking for numerical values as with standard form 'how many'), but just to qualify the total amount of something, roughly. Often - in compare with some 'nominal nicks', with sometimes subjective, but understandable.

What do you think about use of much + countable nouns?
_________________
It’s impossible to learn swimming without entering the water…

[Torsten]

Hi Tamara,

I think there are some much + countable noun expressions that are just colloquial (rather than "bad" English). For example, the current song by Lauryn Hill is called "So much things to say".
Let's see how much things our language experts have to so on this.

TOEIC listening, photographs: A flooded house

[Alan]

Hi Tamara,

Much + countable nouns is anathema to me.

Alan
_________________
English as a Second Language
You can read my ESL story Present Simple

[Yankee]

[Tamara]

Hi

My deepest apologies to you both...
Sorry for hurting your feelings :)

OK.
_________________
It’s impossible to learn swimming without entering the water…

[Torsten]

Expressions like "so much things to say" might be bad or incorrect English and they can cause a lot of headaches for English teachers. Why? Well, although they are incorrect, they exist. You probably remember a singer by the name of Bob Marley? His parents were British, they came from Sussex. I guess Bob Marley spoke English as his first language but he spoke a special kind of English, Jamaican English. He said things like "No woman, no cry" which means "Don't cry, woman" and he also said "So much things to say".

Now another singer, Lauryn Hill whose native language is American English, sings Bob Marley's song again and millions of people around the world will listen to it. Now, as an English teacher you can say "so much things to say" is a no-no and it's grammatically wrong. And you will be right. The question is how the kids listening to Lauryn Hill's song will react to your explanation.

TOEIC listening, photographs: Boats on the beach

[Yankee]

Hi Torsten

That's one of the problems in referring to lyrics for examples of English usage. You need to understand when, where and how the usage might be acceptable. You also hear words in traditional Christmas Carols which are no longer used in standard English.

If someone wants to learn Jamaican English, that's one thing. But Tamara wasn't referring to that as far as I could see.

I'm sure that native English speakers occasionally make unintentional errors (for example, they're thinking of using the uncountable word stuff, but the countable word things accidentally comes out of their mouths instead).

Or occasionally a native speaker may intentionally want to say something incorrectly, for "shock effect", for example.

Shakespeare also wrote things that would not be used by 99.9% of native speakers of English today. :lol:

For me, the correct usage of much and many is not problematic or difficult in standard British English, American English, Canadian English or Australian English. If someone uses much or many incorrectly, that person runs a very high risk of simply sounding stupid or uneducated --- even in an informal situation.

If, however, a person were to determine with 100% certainty that using much with countable nouns was acceptable and standard in the place where they were living and/or working, then the usage might be seen as "safe".

However, it would be extremely negligent on my part (as an English teacher) to tell someone it's OK to say "too much things".

Amy
_________________
"Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power." ~ Abraham Lincoln

[Tamara]

[Torsten]

[Yankee]

[Tamara]

Amy, what do you argue with? (And with whom? :) )

I said I agreed with your position here (that was clear enough even before your last post with further explanation).
Sure, I said that with no 'underlying theme'.

And I admit the rules of the play. :)
_________________
It’s impossible to learn swimming without entering the water…

[Yankee]

.
Yeh Mon. 8)
.
_________________
"Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power." ~ Abraham Lincoln

[Tamara]

:)
no problema, mi no lie!
:)
_________________
It’s impossible to learn swimming without entering the water…

[Torsten]

Hi Tamara, where is that phrase from and what does it mean? Looks like Jamaican? Ah, I should know this since I mentioned "too much things to say"....

TOEIC listening, photographs: Jogging

[Tamara]

Hi Torsten, sorry, I’m not the best interpreter from Jamaican :)

As I didn’t know that Amy’s preferred language :) I just Googled it and snatched out something that looked as English :) from phrases starting with Yeh Mon - in response. To be polite. :)