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#17 (permalink) Tue Nov 21, 2006 11:54 am American accent vs. British accent |
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Hi,
The truth of the matter is that 'f' in place of 'th' is an example of sheer laziness. Gracing it with the title of 'geographical phenomenon is unnecessarily enhancing its credibility. After all it does take some effort to articulate the 'th'. We are entering the world of Estuary English when we hear the 'f' substitute. It reminds me of the title of that glorious musical written by Lionel Bart: Fings Ain’t Wot They Used T'Be.
A
PS I've just switched on the TV and heard an estate agent talk about a' free bedroom house'. Does that mean you buy two and get one free? _________________ English as a Second Language You can read my ESL story A day in the life of a stately home owner |
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Alan Co-founder

Joined: 27 Sep 2003 Posts: 9118 Location: UK
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#18 (permalink) Tue Nov 21, 2006 14:24 pm American accent vs. British accent |
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. Various mispronunciations of 'th' can also be heard in a few areas of the US and are also sometimes used by AAVE speakers. I used to have an Afro-American boss who consistently pronounced 'th' as 'f' or 'v' in words such as 'three' or 'with'. And people in certain sections of New York City are notorious for (stereotyped as) saying "tree and a turd" instead of "three and a third", for example.
Such mispronunciations of 'th' sound terrible to me and they can indeed lead to misunderstanding. (Alan, did you catch the phone number of that real estate agent by any chance? I'd like to find out what else is 'free'.) 
Amy |
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Yankee I'm a Communicator ;-)

Joined: 16 Apr 2006 Posts: 8265 Location: USA
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#19 (permalink) Tue Nov 21, 2006 15:37 pm American accent vs. British accent |
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| prezbucky wrote: | | I've heard interviews of English soccer (football) players and some of them pronounce the soft "th" as "f". Is this a geographical phenomenon... are there certain areas in England in which everyone pronounces "th" as "f", or is it simply that some people, all over the country, do so? |
This is, in fact, a matter of geographic dialect and not of "laziness" as someone said it was. This kind of replacement is not unusual in variants of different languages around the world, since both "th" and "f" are anterior dental fricatives, and the only difference between them is whether the tongue or the lower lip is used to articulate them. Since it's not easier to use the lip than the tongue, there's no laziness involved, any more than Egyptians would be lazier than the Iraqis because their dialect of Arabic replaces the voiced "th" with "z".
Evidently people speaking a dialect with this replacement settled in North America, and their pronunciation was picked up by slaves in various regions, which is why some African-Americans make the same replacement as people in parts of London, and consequently have the same spelling difficulties in school. |
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Jamie (K) I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 24 Feb 2006 Posts: 5332 Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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#20 (permalink) Tue Nov 21, 2006 16:45 pm American accent vs. British accent |
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Hi Jamie,
Naturally I'll bow to you on the matter of linguistic interpretations but to me there is more effort involved in articulating intial 'th' than there is in 'f'.
A _________________ English as a Foreign Language You can read my EFL story A day in the life of a policeman |
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Alan Co-founder

Joined: 27 Sep 2003 Posts: 9118 Location: UK
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#21 (permalink) Tue Nov 21, 2006 19:21 pm American accent vs. British accent |
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Amy & Alan
It does bother me a little bit... not so much that I'm unable to understand what they're saying (I am able to make the leap that they mean to say "th" instead of "f" or instead of "v", as in "brother/brover"), but that someone who is not a native English speaker might not understand.
In such a case, said person might think that the real estate agent is offering a free home.
"I'm here for the free house. Where do I sign?"
"I didn't say that we were offering free houses!"
Lawyers ("solicitors" in the UK, right?) everywhere are licking their chops.
hehe _________________ Billie Jean is not my lover. Hee. |
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Prezbucky I'm a Communicator ;-)

Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 2527 Location: Nashville, TN (USA)
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#22 (permalink) Tue Nov 21, 2006 22:03 pm American accent vs. British accent |
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| Well, a lot of foreigners don't bother learning to say "th" and replace it with "f". They have exactly the problems you mention. A Ukrainian woman who was finishing her master's degree once told me that she had to go before her committee of professors and defend her "feces". |
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Jamie (K) I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 24 Feb 2006 Posts: 5332 Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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#23 (permalink) Tue Nov 21, 2006 22:41 pm American accent vs. British accent |
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LOL, that is too funny! _________________ Billie Jean is not my lover. Hee. |
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Prezbucky I'm a Communicator ;-)

Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 2527 Location: Nashville, TN (USA)
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#24 (permalink) Sun Jun 15, 2008 5:29 am American accent vs. British accent |
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The TH sound within a word such as brother does take more effort than a F sound however i doubt it is ever a conscious decision and so can't be considered lazy.
in fact it is common for native speakers to subsititute T,F,V or even D for the the th and some suggest within 20 years it will be even more so. Think i mean tink about Ireland, or soud africans i also catch myself with the estuary f sound and im from Yorkshire. |
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Motto New Member
Joined: 15 Jun 2008 Posts: 1
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#25 (permalink) Sun Jun 15, 2008 11:39 am American accent vs. British accent |
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| Substituting F and V for the two TH sounds gets you in more trouble than any other replacement. Often it makes it impossible to tell whether the speaker is trying to say "30" or "40", "three" or "free", "thought" or "fought", "thesis" or "feces". I have seen entire groups of people be completely misled about a person's meaning just because he or she put F where there should have been TH. |
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Jamie (K) I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 24 Feb 2006 Posts: 5332 Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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#26 (permalink) Mon Sep 08, 2008 12:02 pm American accent vs. British accent |
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Pronouncing "th" as "f" is typically a cockney thing from London, England. You can hear it in other parts of the UK too though.
You will hear some Australians who talk in an ocker accent use "f" instead of "th" also. Although Australians and cockneys are easily distinguishable from each other, some aspects of their accent are similar, particularly some vowel pronunciations.
You will occassionally hear african-americans use it. Actually I've noticed the English accent has started to creep in to the African-American accent recently, I don't know how though. They've even started to drop a lot of their T sounds.
example: "Yo i'm just si'in (sitting) ere (here) doing nuffin (nothing) man" |
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Suksayee New Member
Joined: 08 Sep 2008 Posts: 2
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#27 (permalink) Mon Sep 08, 2008 12:17 pm American accent vs. British accent |
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That's not an example of the (British) English accent creeping into the African-American accent. What you're pointing out are features that have been part of that accent for centuries. You're probably just being exposed more to a lower-class African-American accent than you'd heard before.
In general, the more British-sounding the pronunciation, the lower-class the accent in the US. (This relates only to US dialects, and it's not BECAUSE the pronunciation features are British.)
There are very few pronunciation features of any American dialect that didn't come from somewhere in the present-day UK or Ireland, so most aspects of American speech that sound British, Scottish or Irish have been in the US for centuries. |
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Jamie (K) I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 24 Feb 2006 Posts: 5332 Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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#28 (permalink) Mon Sep 08, 2008 13:39 pm American accent vs. British accent |
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| Jamie (K) wrote: | That's not an example of the (British) English accent creeping into the African-American accent. What you're pointing out are features that have been part of that accent for centuries. You're probably just being exposed more to a lower-class African-American accent than you'd heard before.
In general, the more British-sounding the pronunciation, the lower-class the accent in the US. (This relates only to US dialects, and it's not BECAUSE the pronunciation features are British.)
There are very few pronunciation features of any American dialect that didn't come from somewhere in the present-day UK or Ireland, so most aspects of American speech that sound British, Scottish or Irish have been in the US for centuries. |
Actually I'm trying to think of an actor/actress who talks like it, but I can't. In fact I think I've only really heard it incorporated in to rap/rnb pop songs on TV, so it could actually be African-Brits who are using it - it's hard to tell when they're singing.
When I think of a typical African-American accent I think of Bill Cosby, Eddie Murphy, Mr T, Chris Tucker... They may use a D sound instead of a TH, but they certainly don't use a F sound. None of them drop their T sound.
Do African American accents have a regional differences? perhaps its only certain areas which use it? if so could you provide me with a celebrity from that area as an example? This really interests me...
Thanks! |
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Suksayee New Member
Joined: 08 Sep 2008 Posts: 2
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#29 (permalink) Mon Sep 08, 2008 13:53 pm American accent vs. British accent |
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There are class and educational differences in African-American accents. Bill Cosby is an example of an African-American accent of the educated classes, and most actors talk this way, unless they are playing a role that involves street language.
The accent you hear in rap songs is the accent of the very low classes of African-Americans, largely the criminal class. This is why it sounds different.
There are minor regional differences in African-American speech, but the main differences are between socio-economic and educational classes. Most educated African-Americans are horrified if they hear their children talking the way people do in rap songs. |
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Jamie (K) I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 24 Feb 2006 Posts: 5332 Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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#30 (permalink) Mon Sep 08, 2008 18:17 pm American accent vs. British accent |
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| Alan wrote: | | Naturally I'll bow to you on the matter of linguistic interpretations but to me there is more effort involved in articulating intial 'th' than there is in 'f'. |
Apparently you're not alone
Joe Cole can tell you a fing or two! _________________ Test of English as a Foreign Language TOEFL Preparation & TOEFL Vocabulary Learn more: How to Become an English Teacher |
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Ralf Language Coach

Joined: 20 Apr 2006 Posts: 1485 Location: EU (Ireland and Germany)
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| The Waste Land | Who is your favorite actor/ actress? |