I could care less vs. I couldn't care less

[Haihao]

Hi,

I was informed that I could care less = I couldn't care less (= I don't care at all).

What is the trick? Logically I prefer the latter but the former also sounds alright. Could you help me make out this riddle?

Thank you.
haihao

[canadian45]

Hi Haihao
The latter is correct. It is the only one that means I don't care at all.

"I could care less" is probably just a shortcut but it doesn't carry the intended meaning. It is wrong and should not be used.

[Yankee]

.
In informal speech (US English), "I could care less" is widely used with precisely the same meaning as "I couldn't care less".

This may not be the case in Canada and I'm not sure about British English.

You should not use "I could care less" this way in formal writing or in formal situations.

Amy
_________________
Amy
.
ESL teacher, translator, and a native speaker of American English

[Haihao]

Hi Amy,

Thank you for your explanation. But I still want to know the picture of this informal usage. Can I see it as just a short form of the latter with the 'not' omitted? To me, the 'not' is fatal.

Regards,
haihao

[canadian45]

I guess it's a matter of how strict one wants to be with what is acceptable English. "I could care less" may well be commonly used but it is not correct English. It's like saying I don't have no money.

My feeling is that we should teach English learners correct English and help them understand why it is correct. If they later want to use incorrect English, we won't be there to try to stop them.

[Alan]

Hi,

The comment:

'I guess it's a matter of how strict one wants to be with what is acceptable English. "I could care less" may well be commonly used but it is not correct English. It's like saying I don't have no money.

My feeling is that we should teach English learners correct English and help them understand why it is correct. If they later want to use incorrect English, we won't be there to try to stop them'

seems a little unreal to me. It really concerns this 'correct' 'incorrect' use of language, which can be quite subjective. I don't have the same crusading spirit and prefer to refer to informal and formal language. We do not know anything about the 'English Leaners' on the site. I think the best policy is to explain our reaction to a particular construction/usage/expression based on our own knowledge of the language and our awareness of current trends.The last thing I ever want to do is patronise.

A
_________________
English as a Second Language
You can read my ESL story Future

[Yankee]

Hi Haihao

I really have no idea how "I could care less" came to be used this way. I could make some guesses, but that's all they'd be -- just guesses. For example, it could have begun with lots of people regularly saying something such as:
"Do you think I could care less? .... NO!"
And over time the question and answer might have simply been shortened to a single statement.
But that is simply conjecture on my part.

Again, you should not use this expression formally, but I'd say you ought to be able to recognize the intended meaning if you happen to be confronted with it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hi Canadian45

I don't believe in hiding or ignoring the reality of language as it is actually used, particularly when a more advanced learner has asked a direct question about a very specific usage. However, I do believe in letting people know whether something is informal, formal, slang, typical native-speaker error, etc. I think advanced learners are generally intelligent and mature enough to deal with distinctions in usage. Obviously Haihao had already heard about this usage and was looking for additional input and/or confirmation.

Amy
_________________
Amy
.
ESL teacher, translator, and a native speaker of American English

[canadian45]

hi Alan and Amy

There is one conflicting thing in what you two have said. Alan said "We do not know anything about the English Leaners....." while Amy talks about "...a more advanced learner...". Obviously learners of any level can read any post so we are never talking to only one person. Especially regarding the relative beginners who read the post, my objective is to point out what I think is correct English and why it is correct. Of course I will encourage them to use correct English. Advanced learners, or any learners, can then use whatever kind of English they wish.

You talk about "the reality of language as it is actually used' and "current trends" . My question is, are we teachers/leaders or followers in the students' learning of English. Are we going to give the OK to all forms of bad English that is commonly used by calling it "informal" English? I would think that surely we should have some standards. Of course if students specifically ask about nonstandard English, we can comment on that however we see fit. We are not all going to have the same outlook on nonstandard English. Some of us may justify its use by the fact that it already is used while others may try to point out that it is infact not good English. The students can then decide what they want to do.

Amy, I think justifying bad English by calling it "typical native-speaker error" is not something an English teacher should do. Obviously you don't agree.

Alan, I am more than a little surprised to hear someone heavily involved in teaching ESL say that telling someone what correct English is is patronising! Maybe this has something to do with the fact that our ideas of how much subjectivity there is in deciding what is correct English seem to differ.

[Alan]

Hi Whatever your real name is,

I really don't know who the 'we' is that you refer to. I have absolutely no connection with you whatsoever and I strongly object to being lumped in with your comments about what 'we' should or should not say on the forums. You are free to comment, explain or say whatever you wish on the forums but I would recommend that contributions are for the benefit of the users. I would also ask that you please refrain from delivering sermons on how I or anybody else should answer questions of language.

A
_________________
English as a Foreign Language
You can read my EFL story Subjunctive

[Yankee]

.
If you're quite finished now, Canadian, perhaps you'll tell me where you stand on some other native-speaker "mistakes".

Are the following four sentences "good English" or "bad English" in your book?

1. Who'd he give the books to?
2. If you stopped advertising, less people would buy it.
3. Did you eat yet?
4. I can't get no satisfaction.

Do you suppose ESL students might ever hear or read any sentences such as these?
_________________
Amy
.
ESL teacher, translator, and a native speaker of American English

[canadian45]

Amy
What is the point of asking me these questions? Did I ever say that students don't ask questions about nonstandard English??? When they do, you can answer them however you wish.

Alan
I think the feelings are quite mutual.
''we'' are people helping learners learn English. I am just giving you my opinion. After all, if you directly or not ask me for my opinion, I will give it to you. I would have hoped that you are man enough to withstand some disagreement. If you disagree with me enough to kick me off here, go ahead; it's your site.

[Yankee]

[canadian45]

Amy

There is no need to state the obvious. Of course you don't need my approval or anything else to carry on as you wish. I wish you people weren't so sensitive! We are just exchanging opinions and, although the post was directed to you, you can refer to everybody.
I wasn't weaselling; I took your posting of those 4 sentences as examples of the English that one does hear. Now that you've made it clear, I'll give you my opinions.

1... is bad English, though I realize that whom is gradually dying. Who'd is also bad English. (Whom did he give the books to?)
2...incorrect (fewer people)
3...is fine by me. (breakfast, lunch or dinner/supper is assumed)
4...bad English, double negative. That's why people shouldn't learn grammar from songs.

By the way, what does "a grammar book with legs" mean?

[Haihao]

Hi,

I guess if there is a lucky guy who benefits the most from your discussions or debates, the guy would be me. I really learned a lot form them with a sense of 'proliferative expanding' for the English language, especially for the 'subtle part' that I can't learn from other sources. Frankly speaking, to me, it is fatally important to distinguish the correct and the incorrect, which will become my standard I have to keep as the backbone to support the whole English world of mine, indispensable for a non-native speaker.

On the other hand, I also want to put on as much 'flesh' as possible for my 'English flavored or seasoned' English because without that I could never possibly become a 'native-like speaker', a dream of mine, which may never come true but I like to cherish and try to get close to it. It's possible that the 'flesh' sometimes could contain some 'bad flesh', but please believe me, I won't allow one side of the coin to give bad influence to the other.

Once again, I would like to thank you all for everything coming about here, and I feel that no other place could have it like this wonderful forum, which provides such a good platform for our English learners and I believe everything, including 'tough negotiations' sometimes, conceives a value and a meaning in itself. Am I a little selfish?

By the way, may I try my imagination once for Amy's "a grammar book with legs"? Maybe Amy would be a little reluctant to give a direct answer?? Could it be something like 'a walking dictionary (two-leg book)?

haihao

[canadian45]

Haihao
Since you used the word guy and you call me "uncle", are you my nephew?