How can I learn English grammar rules?

[Tom]

[Conchita]

The intended meaning is 'forget about (boring) grammar rules'. Your suggestions, however, may convey the sense that the student will end up learning grammar rules after all.

Just my thinking aloud clashing with yours (maybe someone else's will join the fight)!

[Stew.t.]

Agree with Conchita lets change the quote so we can make it clearer for you Tom.

e.g. As Russian has a lot of cases and many exceptions to the rules in this way my subconscious can not memorize new grammar patterns and vocab automatically. I have to put a lot of effort into learning any of the rules.

My thinking aloud and hopefully clearly. German is enough for me though, Russian sounds like a leap too far.
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[Yankee]

Hi Tom

Just thinking aloud:

Learning grammar rules is a very specific activity. Native speakers of a language have aquired vocabulary and learned how to use and speak the language long before they're ever confronted with any type of grammar "rule".

I'm sure that quite a few of the grammar rules you know (have learned) are completely unknown to the average native speaker. A native speaker doesn't learn grammar rules the way most ESLs do; instead, they absorb a "feel" for the "rules" and then simply follow the feeling -- not "rules".

Years before I began teaching English, a German once asked me why he could not say "I have too less time." This is an error that no native speaker would ever make. But for some reason, it is a fairly typical error for Germans to make. Providing my German friend with a correct version of the sentence was easy, but explaining WHY "too less" is wrong (i.e. providing a specific grammar rule) wasn't easy back then. At the time, I hadn't yet learned any specific rule for it -- I only had "feeling" to base my feedback on.

The concept of "learning grammar rules" isn't inherently positive in my opinion. I see it more as a "necessary evil" since adult ESL students generally ask for and insist on being given grammar rules.

Amy

[Torsten]

That's exactly the point here, Amy. Most English learners want to be taught rules although there are much more effective methods of learning a language. I think it has to do with the way we are brought up. Learning grammar rules seems to be the logical extension of our school education program.
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[Aydincelenk]

I took grammar out of my English classes, but it is the students who want me to give rules. I give them the rules of grammar comparatively with their mother tongue. Without knowing their own rules they cannot understand the rules of the second language.
The school education program wants us -teachers- to teach the language to the students but not about the language. Grammar is something about language, but language should be acquired through communication.

[Torsten]

The question is, does somebody have to 'know' grammar rules in order to form grammatically correct sentences? If you 'give' somebody grammar rules, does that mean this person will start to speak the language correctly? My experience is that people think they need to learn grammar rules because that's what they have been told since their early school days. Only a very small minority of people make the effort to think for themselves. The vast majority has been programmed by the school system, their parents, their teachers, etc. Everyone tells them, they need to learn grammar rules if they want to learn a second language. That's nonsense. Grammar rules hinder the natural learning process. You shouldn't waste your time trying to learn grammar rules. Rather spend your time listening to people who speak English (or your 'target language') until you know WHAT SOUNDS RIGHT.

That's the key: If you know what sounds right, you don't need grammar rules. If you don't know what sounds right, you have to listen more. Think about it: You can spend hours learning grammar rules and you still won't be able to know all of them (especially the countless exceptions). What's more, even if you 'know' a rule, that doesn't mean that you can actually apply it. By listening to dialogues you can kill at least two birds with one stone: You learn new vocabulary and new grammar and what's much more important: You learn when and how to use those phrases!
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