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 Fri Mar 28, 2008 23:29 pm What mistakes do people in your country think are correct? |
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| Quote: | | Do you notice examples of this kind of "correct" mistake where you live? |
When I lived in the USA, I noticed many people said "Did you eat yet?", which is incorrect. I noticed that many US Americans do not know how to use the present perfect correctly. Have you noticed that in your country? |
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Molly
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| Fri Mar 28, 2008 23:50 pm What mistakes do people in your country think are correct? |
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Just to get this straight: You are saying that 'give me some informations' is 'innovative or local English' while 'did you eat yet' is incorrect?
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Torsten
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| Fri Mar 28, 2008 23:53 pm What mistakes do people in your country think are correct? |
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| Torsten wrote: | | Just to get this straight: You are saying that 'give me some informations' is 'innovative or local English' while 'did you eat yet' is incorrect? |
I'm saying that you can't have your cake and eat it. If you accept the "innovation" of "Did you eat yet", which is technically incorrect English, then maybe you should accept the fact that some speakers are ready and willing to make "information" countable in English. |
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Molly
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| Sat Mar 29, 2008 0:09 am What mistakes do people in your country think are correct? |
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Well, you don't need to be a linguist to distinguish between an obvious mistake and American English. All you need is just some common sense. By the way what is the difference between 'technically incorrect English' and 'incorrect English'? Weren't you the one who claimed that certain grammar mistakes are perfectly acceptable in "Indian English" or in "Nigerian English". Now you are claiming that even though in American English the simple past is widely used in fsuch questions, 'did you eat it yet' is incorrect English? Is it incorrect in Indian or Nigerian English? Or maybe in both of them?
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Torsten
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| Sat Mar 29, 2008 0:24 am What mistakes do people in your country think are correct? |
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In all this, Torsten, I'm going by your definition of what is incorrect. I'm going by my understanding of your position on correct English, i.e. that you feel that only native speaker English, and along with it the main Standard forms, is/are correct. Can we honestly say that all non-native uses of "informations" are errors? We may be talking about intentional deviations.
You are the one who finds "Did you eat yet" perfectly acceptable when used in American English. but does not give space to the idea that "informations" is, or may become, perfectly acceptable when used in German-English. You want your cake and want to eat it.
I feel you're a bit star-struck by the "giants" of English, i.e. American and British English. By all means learn and use the form of English that suits your taste and your needs, but keep an open mind as to the developments of the language intra and internationally.
And, maybe you could learn to say "this form would be incorrect in the variant of English that I use". |
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Molly
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| Sat Mar 29, 2008 2:33 am What mistakes do people in your country think are correct? |
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| Molly wrote: | | Quote: | | Do you notice examples of this kind of "correct" mistake where you live? |
When I lived in the USA, I noticed many people said "Did you eat yet?", which is incorrect. I noticed that many US Americans do not know how to use the present perfect correctly. Have you noticed that in your country? |
You're contradicting yourself. You're advocating the "rightful" use of international English while trying to negate native speaker performance. If native speakers in America say "Did you eat yet?" it surely cannot be incorrect. Native speakers (born and bread speakers of an English speaking country) define underlying rules of the English language (variety). Just like you as a native speaker of Finnish define the usage of your language.
Descriptive grammars are obsolete.
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Ralf
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| Sat Mar 29, 2008 13:36 pm What mistakes do people in your country think are correct? |
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You're contradicting yourself. You're advocating the "rightful" use of international English while trying to negate native speaker performance.
Nope, Ralf, I'm taking the p*iss. See above.
Native speakers (born and bread speakers of an English speaking country)
Bread of heaven? 
Ralf, why do you think it is only native-speakers who have the right to change/adapt the language to their needs?
Native speakers (born and bread speakers of an English speaking country) define underlying rules of the English language (variety).
Since when? Times have changed, Ralf. Climb aboard. |
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Molly
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| Sat Mar 29, 2008 13:40 pm What mistakes do people in your country think are correct? |
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| Molly wrote: | | You're contradicting yourself. You're advocating the "rightful" use of international English while trying to negate native speaker performance. |
Nope, Ralf, I'm taking the p*iss. See above.
| Quote: | | Native speakers (born and bread speakers of an English speaking country) |
Bread of heaven?
Ralf, why do you think it is only native-speakers who have the right to change/adapt the language to their needs?
| Quote: | | Native speakers (born and bread speakers of an English speaking country) define underlying rules of the English language (variety). |
Since when? Times have changed, Ralf. Climb aboard. |
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Molly
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| Sat Mar 29, 2008 14:51 pm What mistakes do people in your country think are correct? |
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| Molly wrote: | | Ralf, why do you think it is only native-speakers who have the right to change/adapt the language to their needs? |
It's not a question of "having the right" to do it. It just happens. Teach Spaniards international English and they'll be intelligible.
Grammar describes native speaker performance. Hence it is impossible to take new standards on board observed with international speakers to describe native speaker performance.
Born and bread in heaven indeed
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| Sat Mar 29, 2008 15:03 pm What mistakes do people in your country think are correct? |
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| Quote: | | Grammar describes native speaker performance. |
Not only. The grammar of Indian English describes Indian English, and so on.
| Quote: | | Teach Spaniards international English and they'll be intelligible. |
Or teach them the English they'll need for the context they plan to communicate in.
BTW, International English does not really exist as a unified object. Not yet anyway. |
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Molly
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| Sat Mar 29, 2008 15:25 pm What mistakes do people in your country think are correct? |
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| Molly wrote: | | Not only. The grammar of Indian English describes Indian English, and so on. |
That's okay for Indian English.
| Molly wrote: | | Or teach them the English they'll need for the context they plan to communicate in. |
Exactly. And a teacher needs ideals to strive for. I see nothing wrong with a teacher from India teaching Indian English in Mexico. Those Mexicans will have no problems communicating with Americans or Brazilians. And most people who learn English need it to communicate with other non-native speakers. So I don't see any wrong in looking for standards in countries where the language is spoken as a first language. If you didn't do that, international English would be a bottomless pit.
Even in Ireland people have no problems to accept that British English is what they have to get along with. People gladly accept that they shouldn't write the way they speak. It's common sense more than anything.
People in Switzerland write in a language they would never use when speaking to each other. But it helps them communicate with people on the other side of the mountain -- in their own country -- who use different vocabulary and sentence structure.
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| Sat Mar 29, 2008 18:03 pm What mistakes do people in your country think are correct? |
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| Quote: | | That's okay for Indian English. |
And British English grammar description is OK for British English, isn't it? Beyond that...
| Quote: | | And a teacher needs ideals to strive for. I see nothing wrong with a teacher from India teaching Indian English in Mexico |
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Apparently, it's already happening in China: The Chinese, in their wisdom, see a future where they will do a lot of business with India, and maybe less with the USA or Britain for example. Indian-English teachers are being hired to teach ESL students who will then go on to studying in India and then on to carrying out such business with Indians.
| Quote: | | People gladly accept that they shouldn't write the way they speak. It's common sense more than anything. |
Depending on who you are writing to and about what. And, there are commentators (Quirk, et al amomng them) who mention the existence or emergence of a Standard Irish English (StIrE). So... |
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Molly
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| Sat Mar 29, 2008 18:23 pm What mistakes do people in your country think are correct? |
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Gosh, I wonder whether "Michiganese" will ever be officially recognized as a standard and separate version of English. As I understand it, the population of Michigan is more than double that of Ireland. 
Probably we'll just have to settle for the "Yooper" dialect instead of "Michiganese", though.
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Yankee
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| Sat Mar 29, 2008 18:32 pm What mistakes do people in your country think are correct? |
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| Anything's possible. Do you feel that "Michaganese" would/does help one express one's "Michiganess" better that Standard American English does? |
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Molly
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| Do you enjoy watching NBA? | Are you using Internet forums in your native language? |
