|
|
 #92 (permalink) Mon Mar 31, 2008 12:14 pm What mistakes do people in your country think are correct? |
|
|
| nomisyar wrote: |
| I'm American, and I get the English version of "The Office". I find it quite humorous. I'm not alone. Please don't make generalizations, of any type. It’s almost always incorrect, wrong and not factual. "Us" & "Them", "Left" & "Right", "Red & Blue". This type of labeling breeds ignorance, distrust, and prejudice. Russians aren't like this, Indians, aren't like that, Blacks aren't like this, Farmers aren't like that. It makes everything nice a neat and easy when people can be classified, sorted and shelved, but think where that leads, and think how that prevents your mind from creating new synapses to learn more and enrich itself. Just be careful, not just here, but in all facets of life. We all know or have known some elderly relatives and friends, ones who are so ingrained in the prejudices about life that they are unable to change. This is not a natural result of old age; it is however, a natural result of failing to open one's mind up to the ever changing carousel that is life. |
You have had that American education that impairs people's ability to distinguish between a generalization and a stereotype. This is not unusual in the United States among people educated since the 1970s. Let me try to make up for that distortion in your education:
A generalization is a claim that something is generally but not always true about someone or something. Since a generalization allows for exceptions, the discovery of an exception does not invalidate a generalization.
A stereotype is a claim that something is always true about someone or something. Since a generalization allows for NO exceptions, the discovery of just ONE exception invalidates a stereotype.
Americans educated since the 1970s or so have usually been taught to think that all generalizations are stereotypes, so when someone makes a generalization they're always ready to wag the finger at that person as if he were making a stereotype. This causes their thinking to be scrambled. If their professor, for example, says that people in Alabama generally speak with a Southern dialect, one of these kids will get up and berate the professor for being closed-minded and arrogantly explain that there are some people in Alabama who speak other dialects. Of course, it never occurs to the kid that the professor already knows this, and that the professor is just making a true generalization, because the kid has been taught to think that ALL generalizations are unfair.
Given that, I will explain in a way that you'll understand: It is generally true that British comedy contains humor that Americans either don't understand because of cultural differences, or that they find infantile. However, there are nonetheless some Americans who find such British comedy amusing, especially some PBS viewers. There are also some Americans who only pretend to think the humor is amusing, because they believe that the British are "more intelligent" than Americans (because they have British accents), and they're afraid that if they don't like British humor they won't seem intelligent. There are, of course, exceptions to every generalization, so you may encounter an American who genuinely finds British comedy amusing, even though most Americans don't enjoy most British comedy.
Frankly, people can't live without making generalizations. If you didn't, you'd see no reason to think that your new car needs oil -- after all, just because the last one did, why jump to conclusions? -- and you'd run the vehicle until the engine seized. If you didn't make generalizations about people, you might go to Japan and try to speak Spanish to everybody one day and Yoruba the next.
And I'd be willing to bet that back in the States you avoid "dangerous neighborhoods" based on some set of generalizations you engage in, whether you admit it or not.
You yourself make unjust generalizations:
| nomisyar wrote: |
| We all know or have known some elderly relatives and friends, ones who are so ingrained in the prejudices about life that they are unable to change. |
Why did you add the word "elderly"? Because in your mind you generalize the elderly as being the most likely to be prejudiced. So you are prejudiced.
You also generalized in believing yourself to possess higher wisdom than the other people on this forum and assumed we needed to be preached to by someone with superior wisdom such as your own. This is also a type of prejudice.
And:
| nomisyar wrote: |
| and think how that prevents your mind from creating new synapses to learn more and enrich itself. |
If you're not an expert in neurology, don't pretend to be. |
|
Jamie (K)
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 6552
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
|
|
| #93 (permalink) Mon Mar 31, 2008 12:23 pm What mistakes do people in your country think are correct? |
|
|
| Molly wrote: |
| Quote: |
| It makes everything nice a neat and easy when people can be classified, sorted and shelved, but think where that leads, and think how that prevents your mind from creating new synapses to learn more and enrich itself. |
Yes, one can create new synapses to learn to enjoy and respect other people's Englishes, for example. |
There she goes, turning the discussion back around to her pet obsession. Just like the Marxist who starts ranting about exploitation of the working classes when a waitress has merely offered to refill his coffee cup.
And, like the other person, she's pretending to be an expert on neurology. |
|
Jamie (K)
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 6552
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
|
 |
| #94 (permalink) Mon Mar 31, 2008 12:44 pm What mistakes do people in your country think are correct? |
|
|
Thank you for telling me the difference. I will have to go back and check and see whether generalizations were being made in the earlier post, or if stereotypes were being preached.
I don't see a difference, I understand the difference in definition, but in practice I think it achieves the same end.
I am from what you may call a "dangerous" neighborhood. I was born to caribbean parents, and raised in Flatbush, Brooklyn, New York City. During my mid to late teens, I went to an all boy’s prep school on the upper east side of Manhattan and a posh boarding school in Connecticut. I mention this to explain that I think I have had a small smattering of experiences relating to generalizations and stereotypes on both sides of the line, relating to race, culture and also socioeconomic groups. You'd be surprised at how cynically I actually view this world, all the while wrapped in a warm and fuzzy cloak of naiveté.
I spent a month working in the middle of Germany, in a small town out in the Boonies, probably a dangerous town for a Black American with almost no knowledge of the German language. It was quite nice actually.
So, I'd take that bet.
I mentioned some elderly people in attempts to explain that, the longer that one gets comfortable in using vagaries to describe the cosmos in which one lives, the more likely it is to become ingrained in the brain. I did not say all elderly people, only those who are long practiced in this way of thought.
This forum loses its contructiveness if you members choose to use it to snipe, as in your last statement. I offer my opinions and my thoughts, I choose to release my energies and aggressions in other ways. |
|
Nomisyar
I'm new here and I like it ;-)
Joined: 13 Jan 2008
Posts: 26
Location: Dresden, Germany
|
|
| #95 (permalink) Mon Mar 31, 2008 12:55 pm What mistakes do people in your country think are correct? |
|
|
| nomisyar wrote: |
| I mentioned some elderly people in attempts to explain that, the longer that one gets comfortable in using vagaries to describe the cosmos in which one lives, the more likely it is to become ingrained in the brain. I did not say all elderly people, only those who are long practiced in this way of thought. |
But you were and still are generalizing about the elderly. I have dealt very intimately with the elderly, and I teach late teens and young adults. I see no difference in the two groups' susceptibility to engaging in prejudices and stereotypes, other than that the younger people are more likely to have absorbed the stereotypes favored by the politically correct, and therefore they don't see themselves as bigoted, even though they are. They'll preach at people who they think are stereotyping gays, for example, but in the next second they'll reveal themselves as whoppingly bigoted against Baptists. You can't show them this, however, because their stereotypes are "truth" and other people's are "prejudice". |
|
Jamie (K)
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 6552
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
|
|
| #96 (permalink) Mon Mar 31, 2008 16:33 pm What mistakes do people in your country think are correct? |
|
|
| nomisyar wrote: |
| I am from what you may call a "dangerous" neighborhood. I was born to caribbean parents, and raised in Flatbush, Brooklyn, New York City. During my mid to late teens, I went to an all boy’s prep school on the upper east side of Manhattan and a posh boarding school in Connecticut. I mention this to explain that I think I have had a small smattering of experiences relating to generalizations and stereotypes on both sides of the line, relating to race, culture and also socioeconomic groups. You'd be surprised at how cynically I actually view this world, all the while wrapped in a warm and fuzzy cloak of naiveté. |
Hi Ray,
Please tell me more about your experiences as a kid. What was it like growing up in Flatbush? I wasn't aware that there were all boys prep schools in New York, do they still exist? What are the advantages of such schools? Also, what kind of events and experiences made you start viewing the world cynically?
Talk to you soon,
Torsten
TOEIC short conversations: A radio news anchorman asks his colleague for a weather update |
|
Torsten
Learning Coach
Joined: 25 Sep 2003
Posts: 14508
Location: EU
|
|
| #97 (permalink) Mon Mar 31, 2008 16:38 pm What mistakes do people in your country think are correct? |
|
|
| Quote: |
| Just like the Marxist who starts ranting about exploitation of the working classes when a waitress has merely offered to refill his coffee cup. |
Your obsession with me is quite something, Jamie. Lighten upskiz; Comrade.
8) |
|
Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017
|
|
| #98 (permalink) Mon Mar 31, 2008 21:15 pm What mistakes do people in your country think are correct? |
|
|
| Molly wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Just like the Marxist who starts ranting about exploitation of the working classes when a waitress has merely offered to refill his coffee cup. |
Your obsession with me is quite something, Jamie. Lighten upskiz; Comrade.
8) |
We're all obsessed with you. You're very interesting.
_________________
Test of English as a Foreign Language
TOEFL Preparation & TOEFL Vocabulary
Learn more: How to Become an English Teacher |
|
 Ralf
Language Coach
Joined: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 1564
Location: EU (Ireland and Germany)
|
|
| #99 (permalink) Mon Mar 31, 2008 21:20 pm What mistakes do people in your country think are correct? |
|
|
| Ralf wrote: |
| We're all obsessed with you. You're very interesting. |
My aim is to appease. :lol: |
|
Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017
|
|
| #100 (permalink) Tue Apr 01, 2008 4:33 am What mistakes do people in your country think are correct? |
|
|
| nomisyar wrote: |
| a posh boarding school in Connecticut. |
Hi Ray
It wasn't by any chance Choate that you attended, was it? (I'm just curious since I lived in Wallingford years ago.)
.
_________________
"Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power." ~ Abraham Lincoln |
|
Yankee
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 16 Apr 2006
Posts: 8316
Location: USA
|
|
| #101 (permalink) Tue Apr 01, 2008 10:25 am What mistakes do people in your country think are correct? |
|
|
Oh, Heavens no!
I'm a Taftie. The Taft School, in Watertown. (Litchfield County) |
|
Nomisyar
I'm new here and I like it ;-)
Joined: 13 Jan 2008
Posts: 26
Location: Dresden, Germany
|
|
| #102 (permalink) Tue Apr 01, 2008 10:52 am What mistakes do people in your country think are correct? |
|
|
| Torsten wrote: |
| nomisyar wrote: |
| I am from what you may call a "dangerous" neighborhood. I was born to caribbean parents, and raised in Flatbush, Brooklyn, New York City. During my mid to late teens, I went to an all boy’s prep school on the upper east side of Manhattan and a posh boarding school in Connecticut. I mention this to explain that I think I have had a small smattering of experiences relating to generalizations and stereotypes on both sides of the line, relating to race, culture and also socioeconomic groups. You'd be surprised at how cynically I actually view this world, all the while wrapped in a warm and fuzzy cloak of naiveté. |
Hi Ray,
Please tell me more about your experiences as a kid. What was it like growing up in Flatbush? I wasn't aware that there were all boys prep schools in New York, do they still exist? What are the advantages of such schools? Also, what kind of events and experiences made you start viewing the world cynically?
Talk to you soon,
Torsten |
Flatbush is a pretty nice place, at least I think. It’s mainly an immigrant Caribbean American neighborhood; Just about everyone is from some Island. The apartment building I grew up in had all 8 families, seven from Grenada (my family’s homeland); the other family was a holdout of the neighborhood before the flux of Caribbean immigrants in the 60's and 70's.
I grew up in the 80's, the crack years. Although not as bad as the movies, the neighborhood was rife with drug dealers and users. There has always been a strong family presence in the area, so there was not complete decay, but that in turn made it dangerous for the children. I recall hearing gunshots most nights, and as I got older, and things got better, I would hear them less and less.
I went to private school, because New York, like most large cities does not have good funding for the public schools, and it’s very difficult to get a good education at one. I went into a special program than helped students such as myself, and helped prepare them academically for the rigors of private school. Tuition at such schools at the time was approximately 12K per annum. I went there in scholarship. It was an all boy’s school, founded at the turn of the century, with a pseudo-British feel. I received a very good education there that stressed the fundamentals of the English language, namely grammar.
I think going to an all boy’s school was a good experience for me. There are probably 5 or 6 notable all boys or all girls schools in the city, and probably dozens of single sex Catholic schools. I enjoyed it, though by the time I hit my mid teens, I was ready for a coed experience. I think younger boys and girls can benefit in an environment where they do not feel forced to fit into certain gender roles. The only trick is to make sure that there is some interaction so that when in co gender situations, there is not the common awkwardness or uncomfortableness. By college I had gone completely 180 degrees, and was living in co-ed dorms with co-ed bathrooms. Not as fun as you would imagine.
That’s a brief synopsis.
My cynicism? Well that’s how I am. I am generally a very optimistic and hopeful person, but occasionally the state of world affairs gives me a bit of a twisted view. Nothing in particular, just a typical evening news broadcast. |
|
Nomisyar
I'm new here and I like it ;-)
Joined: 13 Jan 2008
Posts: 26
Location: Dresden, Germany
|
|
| #103 (permalink) Tue Apr 01, 2008 11:04 am What mistakes do people in your country think are correct? |
|
|
| Quote: |
| I went there in scholarship. |
Should that be "on scholarship"? And this "all boy’s school", should it be "all boys' school"?
Thanks for you help. |
|
Molly
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 4017
|
|
| #104 (permalink) Tue Apr 01, 2008 11:22 am What mistakes do people in your country think are correct? |
|
|
| Jamie (K) wrote: |
Sometimes foreign speakers of English in certain places all make the same mistake so much, for so many years, that many of them won't believe it's wrong when they are corrected. Have you noticed any of these in your country?
An example: Very many people on the European continent say, "I look forward to see you." This is incorrect grammar, but some Europeans won't believe it. If an American, Canadian, British or other native-speaking translator, writer or teacher writes the correct sentence, "I look forward to seeing you," European students or clients often argue that he or she has made a mistake, and that the verb form should be "see".
When the native speaker explains why "seeing" is correct, some Europeans will make really crazy arguments. To an American, they'll argue that he doesn't know correct "British English". To a Briton, they'll sometimes claim that "everybody in America" says it their way.
However, the fact remains that, "I look forward to see you," is incorrect, and, "I look forward to seeing you," is correct.
Another example is when people in Central Europe say "happy end" in English, instead of the correct expression "happy ending". When we say it correctly, sometimes they think we're wrong.
Do you notice examples of this kind of "correct" mistake where you live? |
Well, since German is rather close to English we tend to make quite a lot mistakes due to language interference. For example, Germans often say "cook coffee" or "make holiday". Another Germlish expression is "I drive with the car" or "I go to home". Then, there is another category of mistakes made by Germans. Here are some examples:
- I have a basecap.
- Last not least.
- Showmaster was great.
- I was served by an attractive stewardess.
I think the key to learning authentic English is awareness. As long as you are aware of the fact that you are bound to make mistakes due to language interference you have the chance to change your habits. It's a bit more difficult to accomplish this if you assume that the phrases and words you use are correct English.
TOEIC short conversations: Personal assistant discusses scheduling for upcoming project meeting. |
|
Torsten
Learning Coach
Joined: 25 Sep 2003
Posts: 14508
Location: EU
|
|
| #105 (permalink) Tue Apr 01, 2008 12:07 pm What mistakes do people in your country think are correct? |
|
|
| Torsten wrote: |
| - I have a basecap. |
What's a "basecap"?
| Torsten wrote: |
| - I was served by an attractive stewardess. |
There's nothing wrong with that sentence, as long as your listener is not a hyper-sensitive feminist.
| Torsten wrote: |
| I think the key to learning authentic English is awareness. As long as you are aware of the fact that you are bound to make mistakes due to language interference you have the chance to change your habits. It's a bit more difficult to accomplish this if you assume that the phrases and words you use are correct English. |
There's another problem with is that people can be so aware of the possibility of interference that they assume any expression that's similar to one in their own language must be wrong. For example, the Czech language has an amazing number of expressions that are worded exactly like in English. I don't know if it's because Czechs have come and gone back and forth to the US in such large numbers for almost two centuries, or if it's just due to coincidence. In any case, some learners become so aware of the danger of speaking Czenglish that they sometimes accuse native English speakers of doing it. In the US, we will often say that a couple who are dating are "going together" and variations on that. The expressions are exactly the same in Czech, so if I use those English expressions in front of a Czech ("I used to go with a girl who...", "One of my friends went with someone who...") the Czech person is liable to accuse me of speaking Czenglish for his benefit. |
|
Jamie (K)
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 6552
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
|
|
|
| Do you enjoy watching NBA? | Are you using Internet forums in your native language? |
