Simplified expression for an international audience

[Stew.t.]

In times of more and more people learning English and the various forms of English being taught or used.
What are the problems that occur in your understanding of English?

Is this the fact you can not adjust your expression or the person you are communicating with can not adjust the way they express themselves?

Is it a problem of over-complex forms of English or is it accents, dialects?

Or is it a question of not being exposed to the other persons "brand" of English (as Conchita so delightfully called my form of English from my interview).

This is a very interesting and on-going topic for linguists and ESL/EFL teachers and trainers.

But as students I think the final word should simply go to you.

Can people simplify their language enough for you?
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[Jamie (K)]

For three years I lived in a foreign town where few people knew English, and I had to use the local language most of the time (which was more than fine with me). Some people wanted to speak English, though, and I --- had --- to --- speak --- very --- slowly --- and --- clearly --- and --- use --- only --- basic --- words --- and --- simple --- sentences.

Since I didn't have much (desirable) contact with other native English speakers, this was the way I spoke English almost all the time during those years.

This was apparently almost the equivalent of going to broadcasting school, because now my English speech is hyper-clear most of the time, and when I'm talking to foreign speakers, I automatically adapt my English to whatever I think their level is -- even using strange expressions that only foreigners use. The result is that some foreigners claim I'm the only native English speaker they always understand.

On the same subject, I have a friend in Prague who reached a VERY high level of English proficiency, to the point where in his writing it was almost impossible to tell he was a foreign speaker. He rejoiced when he was offered a job with Nokia, thinking, "English is the official language of Nokia! Just imagine how good my English will get now!" His English got worse. The first thing he found out was that the official language of Nokia all over Europe is not English, but some much simpler language that mostly resembles English, and he had to adapt. He couldn't use his full vocabulary, and he couldn't use complex sentences, because almost none of his coworkers understood them. He was miserable.

[Englishuser]

Jamie (K),

[Jamie (K)]

[Stew.t.]

Hi Jamie K

To claim pants or chemist are slang British words is taking things a little too far

Meaning of slang:

noun (plural slangs)
Definition:

1. very casual speech or writing: words, expressions, and usages that are casual, vivid, racy, or playful replacements for standard ones, are often short-lived, and are usually considered unsuitable for formal contexts

Pants and chemist have existed for a long time so do not fit this criteria.

2. language of exclusive group: a form of language used by a particular group of people, often deliberately created and used to exclude people outside the group

The words are used by not just one particular group and certianly were not created to exclude foreigners, even Americans.
The words should and are used by people outside of Britian, there are many British or American speakers in other countries you know.

I get your point concerning adjustment of lingo. But I don?t think that a Brit or American consciously thinks about adjusting their langauge before entering a country. It is as far as I know not a requirement at passport control ; ) yet.

I think the point is can the two people communicate or are able to communicate regardless of their origins. Sometimes this is not what words you use but maybe down to body langauge and gestures. Communication is a package and not exclusively dependent on "vocabulary".

I am sure also that people within a country may have "slang" that prevents them from communicating efficently.
Does this mean only standard vocabulary should be used? Who determines the standard?

I think the beauty of English in whatever form is it?s richness of expression not it?s restriction to standard versions.
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[Conchita]

[Yankee]

.
My experience with native English speakers who are not ESL teachers or linguists (whether American, British, Australian, etc.) speaking with non-native speakers of English includes the following:

- Some native speakers simply speak more loudly.
- Some native speakers resort to speaking broken English when speaking with non-native speakers (the NS having apparently made the incorrect assumption -- probably unconsciously -- that this form of English is easier to understand).
- Some native speakers are able to slow the speed of their speech initially, but are unable to maintain a slower than usual speed for more than a few minutes.
- Many native speakers are completely unable to simplify their language and/or eliminate slang.

But I also agree that communication involves more than just words.

I also understand Jamie's comment about "British slang". Using chemist (instead of pharmacist) can be seen as a type of slang in that it is only used by a particular group (speakers of British English) with that particular meaning. As a native speaker of American English, I can't even begin to count the number of times I've had that sort of comment (slang) thrown at me by Brits or by ESLs who have had it drilled into their heads by various English teachers that American English is somehow inherently sub-standard and slang, that our vocabulary is somehow flawed, that our pronunciation is "wrong". I do think that the differences in the various Englishes are interesting and also fun to learn. But I also think that English teachers have to be careful about teaching vocabulary and especially idioms that are only used by a limited number of native speakers.

Amy

[Jamie (K)]

[Jamie (K)]

[Alan]

Hi,

Just a comment and not intended as a gripe but I do find this right word/wrong word/slang/standard word an irrelevant ding dong. Surely we are in the business of communication. If I, as the innocent abroad in the USA, ask someone to help me find a chemist or chemist's and have explained to me that I should say 'phamacist' or 'pharmacist's, so be it. I then move on having learnt something. I'm sure we have all used a wrong word in a foreign language and watched people fall about when we've said it. But it's hardly the end of the world. We learn and remember it for the future. What concerns me is that many of our subscribers reading the sort of discussion above might be put off opening their mouths for fear of getting something wrong. And I don't want this, do you?

A
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English as a Second Language
You can read my ESL story A day in the life of a flat hunter

[Stew.t.]

Alan completely agree with you. I will ding three times for this. I just think that some claims made here were a little bit over the top. The key here is communication and that you have a depth of vocabulary whereby you are exposed to different synonyms regardless of there origin or the claims they are more or lesss standard than others. I do not hold to standards ot international English. I think any student who is really good at communication realises they have to adjust to whereever they are at.

Pants are only precise if they are tight? Maybe boxers are imprecise pants. Interestingly Encarta (North American edition accepts pants see:

http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/dictionary/DictionaryResults.aspx?refid=1861723540

And many of my students outside of UK understand what I mean.
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[Englishuser]

Hi Jamie,

[Prezbucky]

This whole thread reminds me (rightly or wrongly) of a foreign-exchange student who stayed with our family for one year.

I was in junior high (junior high school, generally grades 6-8 or 7-9) at the time -- I was maybe 13 years old -- so you can imagine the glee I gleaned from this:

The exchange student was from Australia. Apparently, in Australia it is common to use the term "rubber" to refer to what Americans would call an "eraser".

Well he comes into the house after his first day at school... you can imagine the story he has for us.

Mom: Tim, how was your first day?

Tim: Oh, okay I reckon. The fellas got a hoot when I asked them for a rubber.

Mom/Tom/Rachel/Dad: (hysterical laughing)

Tim: (face reddens)

Dad: Tom and Rach, go watch TV.

Dad (probably) proceeds to explain the American birds and bees to Tim.
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Billie Jean is not my lover. Hee.

[Yankee]

.
I remember going shopping with an Australian friend once. She told me that one of the things she wanted to buy while we were at the mall was a flannel. For a good hour I tried to steer her to clothing stores, but she just kept dilly-dallying in areas/stores that didn't carry any clothing -- even though she kept saying that she needed a flannel. Despite the fact that we were speaking the same language, I had no idea what she was really talking about and she had no idea that I'd understood that she was looking for a shirt. Turned out she wanted a "wash cloth" but it was an amazingly long time before we finally understood each other on that topic.
.

[Prezbucky]

Did you have to ask her for clarification?

Or did she finally gravitate to the appropriate spot for her wash cloth, before any formal query was made?
_________________
Billie Jean is not my lover. Hee.