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 #17 (permalink) Thu Jan 18, 2007 15:14 pm Does staying away from your country affect your vocabulary? |
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Hi,
You say 'question all the information you get' - that could be a recipe for chaos in a large class, don't you think?
A
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Alan
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| #18 (permalink) Thu Jan 18, 2007 15:48 pm Does staying away from your country affect your vocabulary? |
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| Jamie (K) wrote: |
Oh, c'mon! SPANISH students think ENGLISH is illogical?!
Their native language is a supremely illogical one |
That's a classic, my dear Jamie! Not many people think that their language is illogical or more so than others, do they?
| Jamie (K) wrote: |
| Their native language is a supremely illogical one where people say: "I gave him the book to him." |
We almost never have to say it like that, for the simple reason that, if we use a pronoun, we already know who we are talking about. Only if, for some reason, we need to emphasise that it was him I gave it to, would we add 'to him' -- the same goes for French, for instance, since the pronoun 'lui' applies to both genders. This also applies to the possessive pronoun ‘su’ you mentioned. It’s probably one of those grammar book examples that are hardly ever used in real life, like all those ever-present, awkwardly sounding passive sentences in English exercises, which nobody really uses (to give but one example).
| Jamie (K) wrote: |
| do and make are only one word in Spanish, so if someone says, "Lo hace ahora," you don't know if he's making something (producing it) or just doing something that has no result. |
Another bad example, I’m afraid: we wouldn’t say ‘lo hace ahora’ without any previous context, so when we say or hear this sentence, we know what it means. Since we’re at it, I can’t let the confusing pair ‘do’ and ‘make’ pass – now, don’t tell me there is any logic in the use of those two major hurdles of the English language!
| Jamie (K) wrote: |
| I've seen situations where native Spanish speakers have had to argue about whether "su" referred to a doctor (his) or a patient (your), and you also couldn't tell from the sentence whether the doctor was a man or a woman, |
That’s a joke – in fact, I’m sure this comes from one! In a real life situation, there couldn’t possibly be any confusion. Now, that really is far-fetched! By the way, we have ‘doctor’ and ‘doctora’, what could be more logical than that? |
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Conchita
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| #19 (permalink) Thu Jan 18, 2007 15:51 pm Does staying away from your country affect your vocabulary? |
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Hey, Spanish rocks.
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Prezbucky
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| #20 (permalink) Thu Jan 18, 2007 16:51 pm Does staying away from your country affect your vocabulary? |
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| Englishuser wrote: |
Hi Torsten,
You said:
| Quote: |
| I mean, in all honesty if a native speaker, who is a professor of linguistics and has taught English as a second language for years, tells me that the correct phrase is I'm looking forward to seeing you., all I do is think him for telling me. |
Well, anyone is capable of making mistakes, and I suppose this extends to lecturers in the field of linguistics and ESL (not to mention native speakers which is quite a heterogeneous group). It is important to question all the information you get.
Englishuser |
We are not talking about a scientific issue but a commonly used construction (looking forward to + gerund). Can you give me any reason why I should think Jamie (K) or Amy wouldn't know what is correct? What's more, if they were uncertain, would they tell me that this is the correct phrase or would they say something like Let me look the information up for you? Also, if for some reason I don't believe my trainer, I can find the answer somewhere else. At any rate I wouldn't make a fool of myself by claiming the English trainer who was hired by me or my employer is wrong. If I thought I know it better than them, why should I hire them in the first place? It's like hiring a tennis trainer and then telling him he can't play tennis properly let alone teach me.
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Torsten
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| #21 (permalink) Thu Jan 18, 2007 20:32 pm Does staying away from your country affect your vocabulary? |
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Once I had to give low beginning German lessons to an American engineer at a German company. One day he said something to his boss (the German CEO) in German, and the boss told him he had said it absolutely wrong. We teachers had taught him that in absolutely "incorrect" German.
Confused, the engineer goes back to his office, opens up his textbook -- published in Germany by Hueber Verlag, so very good -- and there was the phrase exactly as we had taught it to him.
He took the book to his boss and showed him the phrase. The German boss said something like, "Oh! I didn't know it could be said that way!"
So bosses can do this not only with foreign languages, but with their own native languages, as well. |
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Jamie (K)
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| #22 (permalink) Thu Jan 18, 2007 20:43 pm Does staying away from your country affect your vocabulary? |
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Hi Torsten,
| Quote: |
| Can you give me any reason why I should think Jamie (K) or Amy wouldn't know what is correct? |
Of course, they are correct most of the time. Nobody is going to question their expertise. That isn't what I'm trying to do. What I meant was that it is wrong to think English trainers never make mistakes. They do. All human beings make mistakes sometimes, don't you think?
| Quote: |
| Also, if for some reason I don't believe my trainer, I can find the answer somewhere else. |
That's obviously what we ought to do and what many people would do. Students should be encouraged to use works of reference on their own.
| Quote: |
| If I thought I know it better than them, why should I hire them in the first place? It's like hiring a tennis trainer and then telling him he can't play tennis properly let alone teach me. |
True. Some people could, however, hire an English trainer so as to improve their grammar and pronunciation skills, for instance, although their knowledge of another aspect of English such as medical English might be excellent. Would you fault the student for enlightening his or her trainer when he or she makes mistakes with medical English terminology?
Englishuser |
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Englishuser
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| #23 (permalink) Thu Jan 18, 2007 21:34 pm Does staying away from your country affect your vocabulary? |
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Hi Englishuser,
What exactly is the point you want to make? You say:
| Quote: |
| All human beings make mistakes sometimes, don't you think? |
Such a comment hardly adds anything to what is being discussed, does it? A teacher is a fallible guide and is clearly ready to admit having made a mistake, when required.
As I said previously I can't understand your suggestion that everything should be questioned by a student, almost as if you are suggesting this is required practice.
A
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| #24 (permalink) Thu Jan 18, 2007 22:48 pm Does staying away from your country affect your vocabulary? |
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Hi Alan,
You wrote:
| Quote: |
| As I said previously I can't understand your suggestion that everything should be questioned by a student, almost as if you are suggesting this is required practice. |
I suppose this depends quite a lot on the subject being studied. If someone studies philosophy or theology, or even history or psychology, there will be many more things you might like to question than there will be when you are studying English as a second language. Certainly you don't mean we should blindly accept everything a teacher tells us as being true? Even the English language has its "loopholes".
Englishuser |
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Englishuser
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| #25 (permalink) Fri Jan 19, 2007 10:30 am Does staying away from your country affect your vocabulary? |
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Hi,
Please don't misinterpret what I have written. We were talking about teaching English, weren't we? There is no question of 'blindly accepting' anything. I merely pointed out the problems that would arise in class if every student were to question every explanation given by the teacher.
A
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| #26 (permalink) Tue Jan 23, 2007 12:40 pm Does staying away from your country affect your vocabulary? |
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| Jamie (K) wrote: |
Once I had to give low beginning German lessons to an American engineer at a German company. One day he said something to his boss (the German CEO) in German, and the boss told him he had said it absolutely wrong. We teachers had taught him that in absolutely "incorrect" German.
Confused, the engineer goes back to his office, opens up his textbook -- published in Germany by Hueber Verlag, so very good -- and there was the phrase exactly as we had taught it to him.
He took the book to his boss and showed him the phrase. The German boss said something like, "Oh! I didn't know it could be said that way!"
So bosses can do this not only with foreign languages, but with their own native languages, as well. |
Hi Jamie, I think this example shows that many CEO's need some basic training in how to deal with people. Your engineer was learning German because he wanted to improve communication with his German management. Now, his boss told him that he was taught an 'absolute incorrect' phrase in German (which obviously wasn't the case.) If that phrase hadn't been 'correct' he could have found many ways of communicating that to his employee. Instead he chose the worst option.
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Torsten
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| #27 (permalink) Tue Jan 23, 2007 13:01 pm Does staying away from your country affect your vocabulary? |
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| Conchita wrote: |
| Jamie (K) wrote: |
| Their native language is a supremely illogical one where people say: "I gave him the book to him." |
We almost never have to say it like that, for the simple reason that, if we use a pronoun, we already know who we are talking about. Only if, for some reason, we need to emphasise that it was him I gave it to, would we add 'to him' -- the same goes for French, for instance, since the pronoun 'lui' applies to both genders. This also applies to the possessive pronoun ‘su’ you mentioned. It’s probably one of those grammar book examples that are hardly ever used in real life, like all those ever-present, awkwardly sounding passive sentences in English exercises, which nobody really uses (to give but one example). |
But just the fact that you can do it is weird, and it means there is some kind of illogic in the language that has to be compensated for.
| Conchita wrote: |
| Jamie (K) wrote: |
| do and make are only one word in Spanish, so if someone says, "Lo hace ahora," you don't know if he's making something (producing it) or just doing something that has no result. |
Another bad example, I’m afraid: we wouldn’t say ‘lo hace ahora’ without any previous context, so when we say or hear this sentence, we know what it means. Since we’re at it, I can’t let the confusing pair ‘do’ and ‘make’ pass – now, don’t tell me there is any logic in the use of those two major hurdles of the English language! |
Okay, but you need the context to know if "hacer" means that someone is producing something or just engaging in an action. In English, the choice of the verb usually tells you which sort of activity is being engaged in, so you can walk in on the middle of a conversation and half way know what is going on.
| Conchita wrote: |
| Jamie (K) wrote: |
| I've seen situations where native Spanish speakers have had to argue about whether "su" referred to a doctor (his) or a patient (your), and you also couldn't tell from the sentence whether the doctor was a man or a woman, |
That’s a joke – in fact, I’m sure this comes from one! In a real life situation, there couldn’t possibly be any confusion. Now, that really is far-fetched! By the way, we have ‘doctor’ and ‘doctora’, what could be more logical than that? |
It wasn't from a joke. It was from a newspaper article, and three different native Spanish speakers gave me three different interpretations of what the pronoun "su" meant, and they couldn't even agree on the number.
"Llevo a mi novia a la fiesta." That's an illogical sentence, because the person is using the same preposition for two different objects, in one case it has no purpose at all, and in the other it means "to".
Anyway, my point was to bring up that Spanish is just as wildly illogical as English, and in many cases containes nonsensical and redundant words and phrases. Your students' criticisms of the "illogic" of English apply to their own language, in which a table has to be talked about as if it were a woman. |
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Jamie (K)
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Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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| #28 (permalink) Tue Jan 23, 2007 13:12 pm Does staying away from your country affect your vocabulary? |
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| Englishuser wrote: |
| Of course, they are correct most of the time. Nobody is going to question their expertise. That isn't what I'm trying to do. What I meant was that it is wrong to think English trainers never make mistakes. They do. All human beings make mistakes sometimes, don't you think? |
Your frequent logical fallacy, in quite a few threads, has been that if any human being can ever be wrong, then everything anybody ever says is up for grabs.
| Englishuser wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Also, if for some reason I don't believe my trainer, I can find the answer somewhere else. |
That's obviously what we ought to do and what many people would do. Students should be encouraged to use works of reference on their own. |
Oh, they definitely do have other authorities that they use as sources, usually whatever authority reinforces their mistake. I have had several students get upset when I coach them on the proper pronunciation of the word "clothes", because, "My teacher in Germany said it is pronounced closes!" Some of them believe a non-native-speaking instructor who has never visited an English-speaking country over a native speaker with two or three reference books. |
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Jamie (K)
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Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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| #29 (permalink) Tue Jan 23, 2007 13:21 pm Does staying away from your country affect your vocabulary? |
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Hi Jamie, the person who thinks that 'clothes' is pronounced 'closes' is just stubborn and will always have a hard time learning something new. I can't understand why somebody who wants to learn English refuses to listen to authentic sources such as CNN, DVD's or audio books. Do you think that a person who has heard the word 'clothes' pronounced a hundred times correctly will ever start thinking that 'clothes' and 'closes' are pronounced the same way? If I want to learn how to play tennis, I watch tennis players in action and try to imitate them. Why do people always try to come up with a short cut to learning a second language?
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Torsten
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| #30 (permalink) Tue Jan 23, 2007 15:47 pm Does staying away from your country affect your vocabulary? |
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| Jamie (K) wrote: |
| Your students' criticisms of the "illogic" of English apply to their own language, in which a table has to be talked about as if it were a woman. |
Ah, but there might be more logic in assigning genders to inanimate things than you think. Have a look at this (which makes me wonder what criterions were used when nouns were first given genders? It could be fun to make our own assumptions):
http://www.savageresearch.com/humor/style.html
I found this at the same time and it's just got to be from our Jamie:
http://unix.cc.wmich.edu/~cooneys/tchg/640/she-he-them.html |
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Conchita
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