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 Wed Feb 21, 2007 1:05 am Do you like marihuana? |
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...as long as you don't hurt others by doing it, exactly.
Shall I bring a case of beer, Conchita?
I'll also bring a movie and pizza.
hehe
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prezbucky
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| Wed Feb 21, 2007 8:03 am Do you like marihuana? |
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I think what Zahir meant was he admires people who don't drink or people who give up drinking.I think it's not easy to be teetolalers. One has to have a very strong will.
I know a lot of not drinking people whom I find it hard to respect more than what they deserve. |
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NinaZara
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| Wed Feb 21, 2007 8:27 am Do you like marihuana? |
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| Conchita wrote: | | Ahmadov wrote: | | This might seem silly |
Yes, it does -- at least to me. You seem to imply that some people respect those who drink alcohol. Well, I fail to see what respect has to do with what we do or don't drink. |
Thank you for your sincere remark 
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Ahmadov
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| Wed Feb 21, 2007 8:29 am Do you like marihuana? |
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| NinaZara wrote: | | I know a lot of not drinking people whom I find it hard to respect more than what they deserve. |
A good point. This once again proves that I am a potential victim of stereotypes, despite the fact that I always want to get rid of them...
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Ahmadov
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| Wed Feb 21, 2007 8:31 am Do you like marihuana? |
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| NinaZara wrote: | | I think what Zahir meant was he admires people who don't drink or people who give up drinking.I think it's not easy to be teetolalers. One has to have a very strong will. |
Thank you Nina, this is exactly what I meant, but I do not think that this will change Conchita's opinion 
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Ahmadov
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| Wed Feb 21, 2007 8:33 am Do you like marihuana? |
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| Che Gevara wrote: | Hi Ahmadov
What was your religion before you became Muslim? |
Well, I was culturally Muslim, but in fact I had no religion...
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Ahmadov
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| Wed Feb 21, 2007 11:08 am Do you like marihuana? |
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I have known a lot of drinkers who have ruined their own lives and the lives of their children, and wasted their talents, abilities and potential. Most people I know drink alcohol in moderation, do not have such problems and are quite worthy of respect.
I have also known teetotalers who have ruined their own lives and the lives of their children, and wasted their talents, abilities and potential. You can destroy your own life, and the lives of other people, even if you are not a drinker.
One dangerous aspect of any kind of cult is that it flips over people's values until what should be fundamental is now superficial and what should be superficial is now fundamental. This produces people who reject the moral authority of respectable people, just because they occasionally drink wine, or because they eat something the cult forbids. Meanwhile, the person who has been screwed up by the cult will accept the authority of someone who is evil, just because he does't drink or eat forbidden foods.
In my daily life I frequently have to deal with Muslims who do not drink or eat pork, but who are otherwise quite evil. They cause a lot of problems for non-Muslims by lying to defend other Muslims who they know are also lying, and they seem to think this is a moral way to behave. Often they don't do this to defend another Muslim, but to damage a non-Muslim, not because they are angry at him or see anything wrong with him, but because one of their coreligionists is angry at him.
In my daily life I also have to deal with people of other religions who do not have this type of lying ritual, but they engage in very bad gossip and slander. Instead of correcting the person who they think is doing something bad, they get satisfaction from spreading true but dirty stories about him.
In the United States we often have to deal with people who come from countries where drinking, eating pork, or engaging in other behaviors their religion considers immoral, are punishable by imprisonment and, in the case of some behaviors, even death. They arrive very smug about their own "moral superiority" to ordinary Americans, because they have never done these things, but when they've been here just a short time it soon becomes clear that many of them have no inner strength to resist such temptations, and they quickly become as immoral outwardly as they are inwardly.
Drinking and eating pork or not drinking and not eating pork are not valid measures of a person's morality. The ability to drink in moderation, and not in excess, is a sign of strength and discipline, not of weakness. |
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Jamie (K)
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| Wed Feb 21, 2007 11:51 am Do you like marihuana? |
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| prezbucky wrote: | Shall I bring a case of beer, Conchita?
I'll also bring a movie and pizza.
hehe |
Sounds good!
Well... I'll provide the dessert then. |
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Conchita
Language Coach
Joined: 26 Dec 2005
Posts: 2702
Location: Madrid, Spain
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| Wed Feb 21, 2007 12:33 pm Do you like marihuana? |
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| Jamie (K) wrote: | | In my daily life I frequently have to deal with Muslims who do not drink or eat pork, but who are otherwise quite evil. They cause a lot of problems for non-Muslims by lying to defend other Muslims who they know are also lying, and they seem to think this is a moral way to behave. Often they don't do this to defend another Muslim, but to damage a non-Muslim, not because they are angry at him or see anything wrong with him, but because one of their coreligionists is angry at him. |
First, I am so sorry that this page is turning into a debate about religion. This is not what I intended to do in my previous posts.
Second, I think you are having the same problem which caused some confusion for me a few posts before: stereotypes. You cannot generalise people like this. There are people who call themselves Muslims yet they purpetrate acts of terrorism like 9/11 and Muslims who are very moderate and clever doing huge contribution to the development of countries where they live.
Third, prophet Muhammad used to say: "Tell the truth even it is against you". I should admit that this is something many people who call themselves Muslims do not abide by. But this is the fault neither prophet Muhammad, nor the Koran.
If the authorities punish someone for drinking alcohol or eating pork, then this is very stupid. Because becoming or not becoming a Muslim is the business of every single person. Yet I understand that many Muslim countries in the world do not accept this because of narrow-minded scholars and rulers.
When writing this I do not say that this should be applied to adultry as well. According to the Koran, adultery is the worst thing that men or women can do. As far as I know, the Book stipulates punishment only for adultery, not for anyhting else, even converting religion. But the case with adultery is the same in Christianity. The Buble also condemns this, which is quite fair.
These are just what I believe and I am not going to impose these ideas on anyone, not only on this web site, in my real life as well.
Anyway, Jamie, if it is really interesting to you then please, write your reply to me in a private message, lest we annoy the owners of the web site.
Thank you
Zahir
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Ahmadov
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| Wed Feb 21, 2007 12:38 pm Do you like marihuana? |
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| Jamie (K) wrote: | | In my daily life I frequently have to deal with Muslims who do not drink or eat pork, but who are otherwise quite evil. |
Also before I forget, the whole idea behind the Koran is primarily people becoming fair and full of compassion, not drinking alcohol or eating pork.
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Ahmadov
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| Wed Feb 21, 2007 13:16 pm Do you like marihuana? |
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Ahmad dear, I agree with you and I agree with Jamie too.
The way I see it, Jamie is only reacting to the muslims that he had to deal with. He is just speaking his mind. In fact what he'd just done was what Muhammad said.
| Quote: | | prophet Muhammad used to say: "Tell the truth even it is against you". |
Many muslims misunderstood this make the mistake of believing what is written in the Quran applies to the non believers too and started to impose it on them.That is just unfair and idiotic.
We do not have to do this because I do see many things that non-muslims do that are islamic to me.(refer the email that I gave you on where I stand on muslim or not muslim).
The ultimate lesson to all muslim friends, ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS. |
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NinaZara
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| Wed Feb 21, 2007 13:49 pm Do you like marihuana? |
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| Ahmadov wrote: | | First, I am so sorry that this page is turning into a debate about religion. This is not what I intended to do in my previous posts. |
Whenever we bring the subject to religion, the post becomes about religion.
| Ahmadov wrote: | | Second, I think you are having the same problem which caused some confusion for me a few posts before: stereotypes. You cannot generalise people like this. |
I am not stereotyping. I am explaining the type of behavior I run into in daily life when dealing with Muslims at a college where most of the students are Muslim. This type of behavior causes frequent problems for their instructors, the administrators and for non-Muslim students. Sometimes it causes problems for Muslims themselves, because they will often knowingly harm themselves for the sake of solidarity with other Muslims who are perpetrating an injustice. I see this every day, and it's not a stereotype.
However, at other colleges that are not in mostly Muslim neighborhoods, and where the Muslims live among non-Muslims, I don't see this kind of behavior, and the Muslims behave like normal people.
| Ahmadov wrote: | | There are people who call themselves Muslims yet they purpetrate acts of terrorism like 9/11 and Muslims who are very moderate and clever doing huge contribution to the development of countries where they live. |
This is true. It makes my point that adherence to Islam and its outward practices are not what makes a person respectable or not respectable. The same is true with other religions, as I brought up in the previous post.
| Ahmadov wrote: | | Third, prophet Muhammad used to say: "Tell the truth even it is against you". I should admit that this is something many people who call themselves Muslims do not abide by. But this is the fault neither prophet Muhammad, nor the Koran. |
Yes, but Islam also explicitly allows lying to non-Muslims under various circumstances, and I suppose different Muslims interpret those circumstances differently.
| Ahmadov wrote: | | If the authorities punish someone for drinking alcohol or eating pork, then this is very stupid. Because becoming or not becoming a Muslim is the business of every single person. Yet I understand that many Muslim countries in the world do not accept this because of narrow-minded scholars and rulers. |
But my point was that many people who come from those countries think they're morally superior to non-Muslim Americans, but when they get to a place where nobody stops them from sinning, they turn out to be weaker than the people who were born here. As a friend of mine put it about the behavior of people who came from his (non-Muslim) country, "America doesn't protect you from your own stupidity."
| Ahmadov wrote: | | When writing this I do not say that this should be applied to adultry as well. According to the Koran, adultery is the worst thing that men or women can do. As far as I know, the Book stipulates punishment only for adultery, not for anyhting else, even converting religion. But the case with adultery is the same in Christianity. The Bible also condemns this, which is quite fair. |
The Bible does condemn adultery, but:
John 8:3-11
| Quote: | At dawn he [Jesus] appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.
But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.
At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"
"No one, sir," she said.
"Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin." |
So, you see that the Bible condemns adultery but does not advocate killing people who commit adultery. Muslims (Iraqi and Yemeni) in my classes have vehemently insisted to me that adultery should be punishable by death, and they were astounded that anyone believed that the sinner should or could be converted instead. In fact, they found the Christian point of view kind of shocking. I am not talking about just one or two Muslims, but quite a number of them. |
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Jamie (K)
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Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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| Wed Feb 21, 2007 15:08 pm Do you like marihuana? |
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Thank you for your comments Jamie...
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Learning is a sacred engagement. |
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Ahmadov
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| Wed Feb 21, 2007 18:16 pm Do you like marihuana? |
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Jamie,
| Quote: | | Yes, but Islam also explicitly allows lying to non-Muslims under various circumstances, and I suppose different Muslims interpret those circumstances differently. |
Please tell me that this is a typo.When you critized muslims, no matter how harsh the words, I still appreciate them because I know they came from a person who is much more experienced than I am. And I know that they are true because I experienced the same things and I know how muslims can be very difficult and yes, down right evil.
But to critisize other's faith? How dare you? |
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NinaZara
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Joined: 04 Jan 2007
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Location: Japan
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