What happened on September 11?

[Yankee]

I agree, Alan.

Something that struck me before Iraq was invaded was that, prior to that first day, there had been never-ending talk about "Weapons of Mass Destruction" and Saddam's secret production of WMD. Nothing was ever reported in the press about "freeing Iraqis". So, I have to assume that the Bush administration also was not voicing this sort of idea. Then, when the attack began, suddenly the only thing you heard in the press was "Operation Iraqi Freedom". To me, this seemed like nothing more than giving an excuse to the military operation -- the word 'freedom' is a word and idea that Bush & Co. surely knew the American public would be most likely to support. But I remember thinking at the time that it was nothing more than obvious propaganda. It was surprising to me that so many Americans seemed to believe it.

There have now been more Americans killed in Iraq since 2003 than people killed in the terrorist attacks of 9/11. The number wounded is many times higher. Does anybody know how many Iraqis are dead? Is the situation in Iraq any better today than it was in 2001? As far as I'm concerned, it's worse and the current mess that has resulted from the invasion was also entirely predictable.

Amy

[Che Gevara]

Hi all
I thought only me and Dark magician believed that this invasion in Iraq = Great mistake...
I see We are in majority ...
and I'm very glad
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Bombing for peace is like f.. for virginity

[Prezbucky]

if Iraq ends up being a democracy, it will all be worth it. Not much comes easy when you're removing from power a regime tht had a stranglehold on the country.

57000+ Americans died in Vietnam. That was to stop communism from spreading into all of southeast asia.

More died in World War II (to stop Hitler/Japan/Italy)

More Americans died in World War I.

More Americans died in Korea.

More Americans died in the Civil War.

Some things are worth fighting for. I think that the ability to vote is one of them. We took down Saddam, because the UN wouldn't. So we did (And are doing) the dirty work. Some folks don't like Saddam being gone, so now we're fighting them. We can't leave now, or all the sacrifice will be for nothing.
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Billie Jean is not my lover. Hee.

[Fan Of Arabian Horses]

[Yankee]

Why isn't this thread in the Controversial Topics forum?

[Torsten]

[NinaZara]

[Torsten]

Hi Nina,

Why do you think the statement "Politics is very dirty" holds true and why are politicians the way they are? In other words, do you think there is such a thing as an honest and loyal politician? Can you imagine that there is any politician you would like to emulate and be like?

Regards,
Torsten
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Test Of English for International Communication
TOEIC Preparation & TOEIC Vocabulary

[NinaZara]

Good day Torsten,

[Prezbucky]

Michael

Really? How much (in percent) of your people voted for the war in Iraq? How much people (in percent) in your country do vote at an election at all?

Most of us wanted to go in there -- to check for WMD, to depose Saddam, for both of those reasons, or for others. We vote our politicians into power, and to them fall the major decisions. As such, this is a representative democracy/republic. So when all but a few people in Congress vote to invade, they are casting their proxy votes for the citizens of America.

Who made Saddam being a strong man?

Saddam built up some sort of state security force ( over the years, I suppose) -- the Iraqi Gestapo -- to make himself a dictator per se. Stalin killed way more, but Saddam was in the mold of Stalin -- purge those who do not agree with you or who you think are threats to your power.

I think you?re perfectly right. Democracy is the answer to all problems the people of Iraq do have. And what have changed since the US offended the Iraq? Unless that Saddam has been executed? Do you really want to kill all that peoeple who don?t like your kind of democracy? Are you one of the Crusaders?

The Iraqi people made their thoughts known when they turned out en masse to vote over a year ago. The insurgents didn't like this, apparently, so they continued to fight the new democratic Iraq. Their actions are not our fault. If someone is elected by lawful means, then his elections should be respected. You don't shoot people because you don't like who was elected. That sounds like sour-grapes-gone-mad to me. They should put down their weapons and vote/talk to make their voices heard in Iraq, as is the acceptable form of electing a government and exchanging ideas in a representative republic/democracy.

Might be that I?m a dreamer, but I?ll go on hoping that once people will be able to learn from each other instead of claiming that we are the only righteous. Seriously? After I?ve read your latter post I dread that might be a hopeless venture. Please tell me if I err!

The people of Iraq should be able to elect their own government, given that the dictator was deposed. They did, but that government has not taken full hold over the country. Why? The insurgency continues to fight the will of the Iraqi people. Iraqi security forces need to be built up so that they can protect the peaceful citizens of Iraq. We are not there to kill people. We wish that the insurgents would join in the new Iraqi government. But as long as they threaten the peace on this scale, and until Iraqi security forces can fight them on their own or the insurgents turn in their guns for ballots, we probably need to be there.

At this point, the "crusade" is to protect the new elected Iraqi government and the peaceful Iraqis, and (pie-in-the-sky) to get the violent ones to drop their weapons, or at least to vastly decrease their nefarious activity.

There will always be sociopaths in this world -- that cannot be controlled -- but what we can do is get the violent ones who aren't sociopaths to use their mouths instead of their guns... or take their guns away from them. hehe
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Billie Jean is not my lover. Hee.

[Yankee]

Hi Tom

What percent of the Iraqi population wants US troops in their country at this point? Has there been any referendum on that?

Amy

[Dark Magician]

[Prezbucky]

yeah

we could take a representative sample or something, from different areas

i would imagine Sunnis are more skeptical/negative toward the new gov't (especially Ba'athists) than are Kurds and Shi'a -- though some Shi'a are getting caught up with retribution against Sunni insurgents.
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Billie Jean is not my lover. Hee.

[Fan Of Arabian Horses]

Hi Tom!

I think, we might argue about percents and politics until we lose our patience and won?t come to an end. Better would be to think about tolerance and differences in ideologies and religions and to find out what actually are the differences if there are some. What do you think?

Michael

[Jan]

Am I wrong or just few months ago what I read was something like Americans are
expected to stay by Iraqis people now for long to avoid more mess.
USA even when leaving is not going to loose anything they are just in moral responsibility of their promises to Iraqis population
Better for all people just to forget politic if it is possible and stay aside for so long
as it is possible.
I am afraid that this war will come to our homes sooner or later and than we will have time to have it clarified.

Jan

Esperanto for everybody, ha ha
funny but to introduce peaceful good Esperanto we will need probably somebody like Stalin because people don't do good things just for fun.