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 Wed Mar 28, 2007 0:44 am Obligations of a woman and a man in marriage... |
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to clarify, in case anyone doesn't know:
55 KG = 121 lbs.
(2.2 x 55)
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prezbucky
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| Wed Mar 28, 2007 11:46 am Obligations of a woman and a man in marriage... |
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Hello Englishuser,
| Englishuser wrote: | Hi Nina,
| Quote: | | Often, women enjoy doing "feminine" things. |
That seems like a statement to me. |
Even if it was a statement, which it was not, what's wrong with it? It is true,most women enjoy doing feminine things. And by saying this, I'm not implying that men cannot / don't like doing feminine things.
It was meant to be the introduction sentence to my question.
| Englishuser wrote: | | Do I penalise people who don't exhibit cross-gender behaviour? No, I don't. The point I am trying to make is that gender does not (or rather should not) matter. It really is that simple. |
Good. I also think the same. But I don't deny gender teetotally. I believe genetic reasons played a big role in the culturally determined norms.
For example, prehistoric men hunt for food because they are much physically stronger than prehistoric women.
And by saying this, I am not implying that women cannot be stronger than men, to my knowledge, strength can be trained.
| Englishuser wrote: | | If a man likes wearing dresses, then he may wear a dress. I don't think it's wrong for a man to do that. |
Is this your reaction to women can wear pants, why not men wear skirts?
Well, women wear pants because it's practical and maybe, to feel pretty.
But men cannot wear dresses for the same reason. Unless he's a fashion designer, most men will not think a dress is pretty and he wants to put it on. Usually, they think it's pretty when a woman wears it.
And if he does think it pretty and wants to put it on, isn't that trying to imitate the other gender?
My point, I see nothing negative when I say I like wearing skirts and high heels because I am a woman.When a man puts on a dress to feel pretty, the message is, I am a woman trapped in a man's body.
Again, by saying this, I am not implying that women are trying to imitate men when they want to be engineers or bus drivers. They want to be those things because they want to regardless their gender.
And if I were not mistaken, British ladies wore skirts in the 18th/19th century because they wanted to hide their shapely legs from men, and wore riding skirts to ride horses but in the end found it too impractical and switched to britches.Because it's practical, nothing to do with gender.
| Englishuser wrote: | | If a girl wants to become an airline pilot or fight combat in the Army, I am perfectly OK with that, too. |
I think most men think the same. But the thing is, in management, companies will try not to do unnecessary processes. For example, they wouldn't want to build 100 cars before there is any order from customers and end up spending invisible cost taking care of unbought products.
Still with me here?
It's the same thing as not wanting to pay for two women when they can pay only one man to do a certain job. If the woman proved to be as competent, I'd say go ahead. But don't ask for special treatment.
Again, it's not gender, it's money.
And I am not implying that women should not be given the opportunity to try a normally-explored-by-men job. Often, when physically challenged, women always find the alternative ways.
| Englishuser wrote: | | It is my firm belief, though, that many norms currently existing in most societies worldwide limit people's freedom to choose which way they want to go in terms of gender expression. I think this is wrong, and I think harsh measures ought to be introduced to change this. |
What kind of harsh measures?In Japan there's a law, companies have to hire 30% of their workers women to make sure women won't be left behind. But from my observation, in a group of engineers, only 5% or less are women. Now are they being biased? I don't think so, I was the only girl in my class.That would say enough.
But I do not think totally blaming Japanese culture would be good enough. All are given the same chance to take the entrance examination, there is no quota for men or women.
Nina
| Englishuser wrote: | | P.S. Some boys clearly isn't the same thing as all boys or even most boys in the world. |
p.s. all boys?you've met them all?
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NinaZara
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| Wed Mar 28, 2007 17:06 pm Obligations of a woman and a man in marriage... |
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As for me (this boy), I'd party with both of you (Nina and E'user).
I might have to bring some headphones or ear plugs, but it'd be a blast anyway (or at least up to the point at which I'd need to insert said plugs/phones).
hehe
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prezbucky
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Dark magician
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| Wed Mar 28, 2007 20:23 pm Obligations of a woman and a man in marriage... |
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Hi Nina,
You claim that most women enjoy doing feminine things. How do you define 'feminine'? How do we know that women enjoy or seem to be enjoying doing feminine things for biological rather than cultural reasons?
You also state that men and women maintained different roles in the past. Studies I have read on the subject claim that women used to hunt as early as in the Stone Age.
It is true that the average man is physically stronger than the average woman, but does this really matter these days in all honesty? Most professions traditionally held by males have become significantly less physically demanding, and many of them never were physically demanding at all.
You said that women wear trousers out of practical reasons whereas men who wear womenswear do it because they feel they are "women trapped in men's bodies". It is true that women often wear trousers because it's more practical and would even be considered stylish. But I believe you are wrong in claiming that men wear dresses only if they feel they are or should have been women.
A man might wear a dress for several reasons, one of which is because he wants to show people he doesn't care about norms imposed by the society he lives in. Men have worn articles of clothing resembling dresses in many cultures. This is a cultural, not a psychological thing.
The concept of a "woman trapped in a man's body" has to do with transsexual women. Most transsexual women would not wear dresses in public while still looking male. Many transsexuals choose to undergo gender reassignment therapy. This condition has nothing whatsoever to do with men who cross-dress for other reasons.
I think it is important to teach our children that it's all right to be a tomboy or a sissy, although ideally such derogative terms oughtn't be used at all because gender in itself shouldn't influence the way you are supposed to behave. Men and women are different in that they play different roles in the process of reproduction. But this does not mean men should automatically be breadwinners.
Englishuser
P.S. No, I haven't met them all, but I think the sample you were referring to was much too small for us to be able to make any valid conclusions. |
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Englishuser
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| Wed Mar 28, 2007 20:26 pm Obligations of a woman and a man in marriage... |
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Hi Dark magician,
Why do you think your gender should determine what clothes you are to wear? Who defines what 'masculine' or 'feminine' clothing is supposed to be? And why do you think you should be the breadwinner of your family?
Englishuser |
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Englishuser
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| Wed Mar 28, 2007 20:30 pm Dark magician |
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| Quote: | finally, which changes are positive for woman?
when she stay at her kingdom .
_______________Or______________
when she must work, If she want to earn some money for her life. |
It sounds beautiful when you say when she stays at her kingdom,but not realistic,not all men think the way you do, men when they work and reach goals, I think they feel a personal accomplishment,sometimes only think in work, work, work,and forget our kingdom ..women love to cook and take care of kids,that's true, but in a certain point of our lives we also want to reach personal accomplisment,and why not? improve our live quality.
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Cristina
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| Wed Mar 28, 2007 20:36 pm Obligations of a woman and a man in marriage... |
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Cristina wrote:
| Quote: | | women love to cook and take care of kids,that's true |
Some women love to cook and take care of the kids, not all women!
Englishuser |
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Englishuser
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| Wed Mar 28, 2007 20:43 pm Englishuser |
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| Quote: | | Some women love to cook and take care of the kinds, not all women! |
Thanks to correct my mistake  [/quote]
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Cristina
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Dark magician
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| Thu Mar 29, 2007 7:37 am Obligations of a woman and a man in marriage... |
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Hi Englishuser,
| Quote: | | I think it is important to teach our children that it's all right to be a tomboy or a sissy, although ideally such derogative terms oughtn't be used at all because gender in itself shouldn't influence the way you are supposed to behave. Men and women are different in that they play different roles in the process of reproduction. But this does not mean men should automatically be breadwinners. |
I've felt relieved after you said this. I've been one of those children you mentioned  . I'm always blamed for doing things my way. I hate the idea of keeping women at home, looking after children and expecting women to be nice and gentle all the time. We have rights to do things that don't harm others. And it's time to break and start to fly when in society both men and women are very important to share the social development contribution.
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Rosalisa
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| Thu Mar 29, 2007 7:41 am Obligations of a woman and a man in marriage... |
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And Dark Magician, as the roles of gender change, perhaps your spouse will share half of the home requirements. You don't need to do it all alone. 
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Rosalisa
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| Thu Mar 29, 2007 8:43 am Obligations of a woman and a man in marriage... |
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Hi Dark magician,
I really cannot see why it matters what kind of clothes someone wears. Why on earth would it be wrong for a man to wear feminine clothes? I feel the need to repeat my question: Who defines 'feminine' in the first place? It is true that there are many biological and genetic differences between men and women. But these differences have nothing to do with what clothes you may wear!
You state that you stick to certain stereotypes out of respect for tradition. I dislike the idea of my being controlled by former generations in this way. What if my ancestors permitted women being burnt at the stake? Does that mean I should continue pursuing women the way they did? I think we need to realise that we need to question and scrutinise what our parents do/did. We could then keep up traditions that promote equal opportunity, and get rid of the rest.
Englishuser |
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Englishuser
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| Thu Mar 29, 2007 22:11 pm Obligations of a woman and a man in marriage... |
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Hi, Englishuser!
I'm may not agree with you about clothes's matter,because I think every gender, try to show himself in nice appearance.
and any gender (feminine or masculine) have respective behaviour do as soon as possible on release these differences for be characterise on another gender, and this behaviour can you see it, through fuss one of two genders in kind of clothes.
I don't try escalation with you but I say what I think true.
about traditions,
yes... you are right, there some of traditions are very bad,but that not mean all traditions has scary Ideas, and we must face all these concerns and try to replace bad traditions to new good habits.
of course we have to attention between bad traditions and good traditions in our society.
finally, I think I said in first post here
| Dark magician wrote: |
But now the woman and man must work out, if they want good life. 
you know the life become very hard these days  .
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Ok,
I prefer be breadwinner for my family but in these hard days I think my wife will help me.
regards,
Mba
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Dark magician
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