TOEFL® Essay: Immigration - a necessary evil or a true benefit to society?

[Englishuser]

Hi Amy,

You used the term "advanced-but-not-quite-native". What do you regard as "native"? If you read essays written by some American high school students you will find that they don't necessarily write as well as some upper intermediate ESL students. Native speakers of any language who are not language teachers or professional linguists are very different in terms of language skills/linguistic competence.

Let me know what you think,

Englishuser

[Yankee]

Hi EU

I think we've covered this ground before. What I think of as native is someone who has grown up in an English-language environment and whose first language is English.

Obviously, there are excellent writers, good writers, average writers, so-so writers, awful writers in American high schools. This is true of teenagers in schools everywhere in the world.

Native English speakers do not learn most grammar rules, word order, idioms, vocabulary, etc. the same way that most ESL students do because native speakers simply don't need to. I'm sure you're well aware of this.

Sure, native speakers can also profit from input about their writing. I seem to recall having already written that once today... in this very thread.

Amy
_________________
"Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power." ~ Abraham Lincoln

[Englishuser]

Hi Amy,

I think it is wrong to state that a text written by a native writer is somehow on a higher level than a text written by a non-native writer. A native speaker's command of his or her first language seems to depend on so many factors, after all, such as their age, gender, social background, education, medical situation, IQ, profession, and numerous other things. It feels as if this is the hundredth time I write this but I still think that professors of English would normally write "better" texts than, say, bus drivers.

I know that first language acquisition normally differs from second language acquisition in many ways. I do, however, claim that it is possible to acquire (not learn) a second language. This seems to be what Torsten thinks and I totally agree with him. If you immerse yourself with a second language at an early age, or even later in life, you may well end up thinking in that language without the need to translate things in your head . You also will not need to swot grammar rules if you acquire a language.

Englishuser

[Yankee]

Really?!?!? Immersion means you don't have to learn a lot of nasty grammar rules? Language ability depends on a lot of factors? Gee, I wish I'd known that. :roll: :roll:

One of the things that is extremely unpleasant about communicating with you, EU, is your tendency to put words into the mouths of other people -- words that they've never said. You apparently delight in purposely misinterpretting what other people say. Whatever suits your own purpose (whatever the purpose might be...)

Isn't it obvious that people everywhere can be intelligent or unintelligent no matter what language they speak? That different people learn differently? That the vast majority of ESL students are not immersed in English even though that might be the most effective means of learning English?

By the way, I know someone who is a bus driver. She is quite intelligent, writes very well, paints wonderful pictures, etc. Are bus drivers automatically stupid in your book, EU?

You don't need to answer. My questions were all rhetorical.
_________________
"Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power." ~ Abraham Lincoln

[Englishuser]

Hi,

I didn't put any words into your mouth - I wrote about my own reflections on something we were discussing.

As for bus drivers, I never claimed they were any less intelligent than other people. Who is the one who's putting words into people's mouths now? If you read my post carefully, you can see that I wrote: "I still think that professors of English would normally write "better" texts than, say, bus drivers."

[Yankee]

[Englishuser]

Hi Amy,

[Englishuser]

Hi,

Alan wrote:

[Frankie Fiveangels]

Maybe I can help a bit with all this brouhaha. I'm a professional editor.

Your essay, Englishuser, was okay. Alan's suggestions did make it better. There were a few other things I would've changed but nothing big. For example:

"As early as in 8000 BC people moved, trying to find a better place to inhabit."

Removal of the preposition "in" is necessary as Alan pointed out, but i would've also changed "inhabit" to "live". "Inhabit" isn't wrong but "live" suffices and sounds more natural. Rule #16, Don't use a long word when a shorter one will do.

There were a bunch of little things like this in your essay, EU, Alan just took on the more awkward ones.

Most people don't write well and even professional authors use professional editors (thank god, or the rent wouldn't be paid). My writing gets corrected all the time by my colleagues but I don't lose any sleep over it.

I think you need to distance yourself away from your writing and not take it as a personal attack.

Overall you wrote a good essay with just a few funnyisms.

[Englishuser]

Hi Frankie Fiveangels,

Thank you for your message and for joining our forum. I hope you will help other people improve their texts as well.

EU