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 Sat Apr 12, 2008 6:46 am What's the weather like vs. How's the weather? |
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| Quote: | Weather does not feel anything. Does it?
Weather is always going to be either sunny/rainy/cloudy/snowy etc.... Its not going to feel something different....that is why we describe it (the weather) using adjectives of quality.
Even if these qualities are temporary (one day its sunny the next its cloudy).
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Hi Oliver
While I understand the difference you've tried to establish between the ideas of 'state' (basically a temporary or particular condition) and 'quality' (basically a permanent characteristic), I disagree with the suggestion that describing the 'state' of something automatically means that the thing described 'feels' something. All of the following are correct usages of the word 'state':
- gaseous state
- deplorable state
- vegetative state
- state of emergency
- state of disarray
- state of the union
- state-of-the-art
If someone said that steam is water in a gaseous state, the person would not be saying that the water feels something. If I said that my office was in a state of disarray, that does not mean that my office feels something.
How is it?
'How is (something)' can be used to ask people to describe an experience, a particular event or a particular condition. Let's imagine that John and I are at a restaurant. We'd heard that the soup at this particular restaurant is always fabulous, so both of us ordered soup -- but not the same type of soup. We have now begun to eat. The following exchange could theoretically take place: | Quote: | Amy: My soup is delicious! How is yours?
John: Well, actually, this may well be the worst soup I've ever had the misfortune to taste. |
The question 'How is your soup' in the conversation above is restricted to a particular bowl of soup rather than the usual characteristics of all soup served at that restaurant. In this particular example, you might also look at the question as meaning 'How does your soup taste?'
In the question 'How is your new boss?' the idea of a temporary or particular state is already part of the question (new).
I could also ask someone 'How are your new shoes?' The answer I would expect would be subjectively descriptive -- 'tight' or 'uncomfortable', for example. So, the response might describe how the new shoes feel to the wearer. I would definitely not expect a response to that question to be an objective, concrete description such as 'leather', '4-inch heels', 'bright red'. In addition, I would not expect 'expensive' to be a typical response to that question since the expense of those particular shoes is in the past and the question asks about the present.
"How was the movie?" --> I want to know about a particular experience.
"How was your flight?" --> I want to know about a particular event (your flight).
"How was the weather when you were in England?" --> I want to know about the specific (particular) weather conditions during your visit.
In my humble opinion, to suggest that saying "How is the weather" is somehow grammatically incorrect or strictly informal is prescriptivism gone amok.
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Yankee
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 Nessie
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| Sat Apr 12, 2008 12:06 pm What's the weather like vs. How's the weather? |
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Hi Nessie,
Oliver's new nickname sounds fine.
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Torsten
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| Sat Apr 12, 2008 15:44 pm What's the weather like vs. How's the weather? |
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Greetings my fellow teachers!!
to Amy:
the usage of "how" that you have shown is exactly what it means "state"!
i thought normal teachers would understand "how= state" (the condition of the noun) and "what...like= quality" (the description of the noun)
this rule has only one irregularity= weather!!!!
when questioning about the weather you should say "what is the weather like", but the question can be answered either with adjectives of quality(beautiful) or state(hot).
I do not make rules i follow them!!
English has many irregularities such as phrasal verbs!!
now i would like all readers to do the Cambridge level test and specifically do exercise number (7).
this is the link:
http://www.englishjet.com/english_courses_files/test_level.asp
take your conclusions from your result!
until then!! stay true!!
farewell! |
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CambridgeGuy
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Mister Micawber
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| Sat Apr 12, 2008 16:54 pm What's the weather like vs. How's the weather? |
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| CambridgeGuy wrote: | to Amy:
the usage of "how" that you have shown is exactly what it means "state"!
i thought normal teachers would understand "how= state" (the condition of the noun) and "what...like= quality" (the description of the noun) |
Yes, and if you read my last post a little more carefully, you might notice that I said that I understood the difference you were getting at in your post.  What I did not agree with was (a) that 'How's the weather?' is wrong and (b) your argument that 'How's the weather?' is wrong because weather doesn't feel anything.
| CambridgeGuy wrote: | | this rule has only one irregularity= weather!!!! |
I'd be interested in seeing where this 'rule irregularity' is written.
| CambridgeGuy wrote: | | when questioning about the weather you should say "what is the weather like", but the question can be answered either with adjectives of quality(beautiful) or state(hot). |
Unlike you, I would interpret this sort of 'irregularity' to mean that either question can be used.
| CambridgeGuy wrote: | | I do not make rules i follow them!! |
Are you a native speaker of English?
| CambridgeGuy wrote: | | English has many irregularities such as phrasal verbs!! |
Yes, it does.
Ah HA! That test! Oh, dear! Someone has asked about that test before! I wouldn't put too terribly much faith in that test if I were you. Here are some of my observations and conclusions:
Sentence 4 has no period/full stop at the end.
Sentence 7 has two correct options.
Sentence 10 is a comma splice.
Sentence 22 is incorrect. It would be a comma splice if it had a comma. Since it doesn't even have a comma, I suppose it can only be called a run-on sentence.
Sentence 28 has two grammatically correct options. The test categorizes "Has Mr. Brown arrived already?" as incorrect and allows "Has Mr. Brown arrived yet?" as the only correct answer. Both are correct. They are simply used differently!
Sentence 41 is a comma splice. In addition, it doesn't really make much sense without some kind of additional context.
Two of the sentences in 44 are missing a period/full stop at the end.
Sentence 55 was very entertaining for me (as a speaker of American English). 
Sentence 56 is a comma splice.
Sentence 58 sounds odd to me. I question the grammar/punctuation. It seems to be a run-on sentence at best.
Sentence 59: Without a comma, I question the usage of the word 'but' rather than the word 'that'.
Sentence 63 is a comma splice.
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| Sat Apr 12, 2008 17:42 pm What's the weather like vs. How's the weather? |
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Amy,
I see your strong point is punctuation....in most of the examples you gave I can see why you'd consider them comma splices and in one particular example, a run on sentence.
Let's keep in mind that when using parallel construction commas are acceptable!
Anyways, we're not here to discuss the Cambridge Test.
No, I'm not a native speaker (I see you shaking your head saying "no wonder") but I studied language arts at Oxford and I do not only speak and understand English fully but I also speak and understand several other languages including, Spanish, Portuguese and French.
My point is, when trying to explain a shady concept to an ESL student you have to have a broad point of view and try to explain it in a reasonable and logical way.
Language Arts is a philosophy, what we say "colloquially" doesn't always make complete sense in another language which is why we have to try to find organized and logical ways of explaining.
It would probably be much easier to just say: This is casual, and that is formal. But rules are rules and when teaching an ESL student we HAVE to stick by them or they'll only get confused.
When I said that the rule had only one irregularity= weather! I meant that while most people don't see it as an irregular way asking about the weather, if you dig a bit deeper you'll realize it is irregular.
When we ask questions like: "How's the desk?" or "How's the soup?" we are referring
to how do YOU think or feel the soup is...not the soup itself.
How's the soup? The soup is hot. (We are asking how's the soup's temperature.
How's the desk? It's almost finished. (We are asking how's the construction project of the desk.)
How's the weather? The weather is cold. (We feel cold, the weather does not, if it did, we'd have to ask it to put on a jacket now, wouldn't we?)
In conclusion: WE CAN SAY "HOW'S THE WEATHER BRO?" but if a student wants to know the difference...ahh man, read my former posts....
Oliver |
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CambridgeGuy
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| Sat Apr 12, 2008 18:43 pm What's the weather like vs. How's the weather? |
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Hi CambridgeGuy
| Quote: | | I see your strong point is punctuation |
Actually, I consider myself to be much stronger in grammar than in punctuation.
| Quote: | | Let's keep in mind that when using parallel construction commas are acceptable! |
I suspect that you and I might have differing definitions of 'parallel construction'.
As I mentioned earlier in this thread, the rules that are given to ESL beginners are typically simplified and very general. So, I understand that idea. However, as the learner progresses, the more complicated rules, exceptions and usages are learned. The fact that something is viewed as inappropriate to teach at a beginner level does not automatically mean that the more advanced versions of the 'rules' and usages are grammatically incorrect. That just isn't the case. If it were, then you would have to say that something such as "He be" is always incorrect -- without exception.
| Quote: | | Anyways, we're not here to discuss the Cambridge Test. |
Nevertheless, sentence 28 in the "Cambridge" link is also an illustration of an 'over-simplified' rule that is typically given to beginners (the use of 'yet' in questions and negative sentences). However, a teacher who tells a more advanced student that 'already' can never be used in a question is doing a great disservice to that student. The inclusion of the word 'already' as one of the incorrect options for that test question is an indication that the test was not written as well as it could and should have been.
Telling any student -- no matter what the level -- that 'How is the weather?' is incorrect and/or that it is only used informally amounts to giving the student false information. Sorry, but you haven't written anything here that would lead me to question my own opinion on that.
| Quote: | | "HOW'S THE WEATHER BRO?" |
What makes that informal is the use of 'bro' -- along with the missing comma, of course. The following sentence is also informal:
What's the weather like bro?
I certainly wouldn't have any reservation whatsoever about saying 'How is the weather?' even in a formal context.
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| Sun Apr 13, 2008 1:32 am What's the weather like vs. How's the weather? |
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| Yankee wrote: | | I certainly wouldn't have any reservation whatsoever about saying 'How is the weather?' even in a formal context. |
I currently base myself on what I have studied and where I have studied!
I guess you are doing the same thing or just saying what tickles your fancy nonetheless
I've never seen anything similar to what you are saying in any authorized grammar book therefore next time bring some back up and then drop the bomb!!
Until then farewell!
Ohhh, by the way, have a nice weekend!
Oliver |
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CambridgeGuy
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| Sun Apr 13, 2008 2:09 am What's the weather like vs. How's the weather? |
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| Quote: | | I've never seen anything similar to what you are saying in any authorized grammar book therefore next time bring some back up and then drop the bomb! |
'Authorized' by whom and for what purpose? Talk of 'authorized grammar books' and the dropping of grammar bombs doesn't worry me. I've seen many an ESL grammar book -- from beginner ones to advanced ones, from antiquated ones to modern ones, and from horrendous ones to excellent ones.
Enjoy the rest of your weekend, too.
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| A special usage if Past perfect tense? | 'Demonstrable' -a form of 'demonstrate'? |
... something we never have again, I know... I guess I really really know..