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 Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:17 pm I wonder how do you feel about the worst massacre in the US? |
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| Quote: | | Besides,I am thinking the root of the problem. I think maybe we should think about that if we have taken care of our students when they are younger. The Korean which is 23 years old, and I think their parents,teachers,classmates can know him a little bit. But have somebody found this when he was a child, and given him some suggestions? I meant probably we need to care about their behavior or thinking ,not only the grades they get. Their emotions or thinking surely will be more important than other things. This is my idea,and I can't make sure if I can post this kind of article here. Because I think the people here rarely talk about this kind of topic. Anyway,thanks in advace for your response. |
Hi Maggie,
I have ever read about the life of South-Korean Americans. It's reported that violence can be found in their lives there. You know, a lot of them have very stressful lives in the US. Moreover, they still keep their traditions while living in the US. And I have ever read a case about a south-korean man who killed his wife and son before he shot himself to death in the US. So this is a thread that prompts me to think that the crime case you mentioned is related to that too.
And I also heard this news yesterday. It's shocking that one person can destroy a lot of lives at once. You are right, Maggie, we need to look into this man's life. Stress in study, work and even in family can cause one to forget what's good or bad. We need to talk about it before it's too late. Family and friends should dependable sources for the ones who need help.
My country has had a gun-control policy but that's not completely true because there are still people who still use guns in public. However, there are never cases like this.
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Rosalisa
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| Wed Apr 18, 2007 15:46 pm I wonder how do you feel about the worst massacre in the US? |
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Remember one thing first: Neither of the two deadliest terrorist attacks in US history involved guns. One was carried out with box cutters and airplanes (the 9/11 attacks), and one was carried out with exploding fertilizer (the Oklahoma City bombing). Both attacks killed thousands of people, but we can't make box opening knives, airplanes or fertilizer illegal.
Another thing is that it's already not easy to get guns legally in the US. Generally, you have to order the gun, get fingerprinted, undergo a criminal background check, and wait 45 days before you can actually pick up the gun. The laws vary from state to state, but that's basically it. The attacker in Virginia had a clean police record, so he was able to buy both of his guns legally.
As the number of restrictions on gun use in the US have increased, so has the murder rate. When guns were less restricted, there were far fewer murders. The simple reason is that criminals usually don't attack a victim if they think the person might be armed. Some US states have rolled back their gun laws in the past several years, so that any person who is not a convicted criminal is allowed to carry a concealed weapon. The result has been a DECREASE in violent crime, not an INCREASE. Since anyone might be hiding a gun, criminals are more afraid to attack.
You can't convince me that in Taiwan only the police have guns. Surely plenty of criminals also have guns, and ordinary people can't resist those criminals, because they are unarmed. This is true in every country that has strict gun laws. Gun laws only restrict gun use and ownership by people who follow the law. Criminals just do whatever they want.
Korean Americans don't have any more violence in their lives than other Americans, but if your local newspaper cherry picks violent incidents, it might look like that from afar. Some Korean Americans have actually told me that things are better for them here than they were in South Korea. For one thing, they told me that kids in South Korea are under so much pressure to pass important exams at school that a lot of children and teenagers commit suicide there. I don't know, because I've never been to South Korea, but I do know how Koreans live in the US, and they tend to live better than most people here.
You'll notice from the news reports that people did try to intevene and get help for the assassin in Virginia, but it didn't do any good. One thing that people often ignore is that there really is such a thing as evil, and that some people choose to embrace evil and do evil things. Many such people don't respond to any kind of help or counseling.
It's very possible this assassin did not have any visible problem in childhood, so college may have been the first time anyone noticed trouble, and by that time he was an adult and just did what he wanted to.
The Wall Street Journal had something interesting to say about the situation today:
| Quote: | | A better response than gun control would be to restore some of the cultural taboos that once served as restraints on antisocial behavior. These columns long ago noted the collapse of such social and moral restraints in a widely debated editorial called "No Guardrails." Instead, after Columbine, there was a rush to blame violent videogames. But videogames or other larger media influences don't inspire mass murder when there are countervailing restraints and values instilled by families, teachers, coaches and pastors. Two generations ago, colleges felt an obligation to act in loco parentis. Today, the concept is considered as archaic as the Latin -- and would probably inspire a lawsuit. |
Rosalisa, I tend to think of this assassin as being more like Pol Pot. Do you think Pol Pot's madness could have been prevented earlier in his life? After all, he freely chose to think what he thought, and to do what he did. |
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Jamie (K)
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| Wed Apr 18, 2007 16:22 pm I wonder how do you feel about the worst massacre in the US? |
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yep
While a gun in the hands of a perp is a bad thing, bear in mind (gonna bullet-point Jamie's main points, I hope) some of the following pros for owning guns.. or reasons people could give for owning them (the "US vs. tyranny" example could work in any country):
- Except in the very rare case of an officer being very near you, police cannot get there fast enough to protect you from a would-be assailant. If you are armed, you at least have a chance to protect yourself and/or your family.
- Widespread civilian gun ownership would make it difficult for anyone to subject the US to tyranny, or for any foreign power to take over the US. That's assuming they ever got past the military... they'd then have 50,000,000 to 100,000,000 or so firearm owners to deal with, state and local police, FBI, etc. Look at the trouble we've had stopping the anti-democracy insurgency in Iraq. They are an armed populace -- at least it seems the "bad" guys have guns. It's much easier to put a leash on someone and order him around if he has no means of fighting.
- Hunting
- Sport-shooting and target-shooting (shooting at clay pigeons, immobile targets, etc.)
- To look at -- guns, to some, are stylish... cool to have around for their aesthetic value.
If I ever bought a gun, it would most likely be for the last two reasons -- I might not even buy bullets for it. Or if I were into shooting at targets for the fun of it, I'd just buy a box each time I went out to a shooting range.
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prezbucky
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| Thu Apr 19, 2007 11:36 am I wonder how do you feel about the worst massacre in the US? |
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Hi Jamie (K),
| Quote: | | Korean Americans don't have any more violence in their lives than other Americans, but if your local newspaper cherry picks violent incidents, it might look like that from afar. Some Korean Americans have actually told me that things are better for them here than they were in South Korea. For one thing, they told me that kids in South Korea are under so much pressure to pass important exams at school that a lot of children and teenagers commit suicide there. I don't know, because I've never been to South Korea, but I do know how Koreans live in the US, and they tend to live better than most people here. |
Perhaps, that was told by some Korean Americans, you mentioned. But have you ever watched Korean films even though you have never been to South Korea yourself? Most of them depict strong control of the old people over young people. The young can be punished right away if they make mistakes. And of course, I find it a bit violent. And it is true that most of them still keep their traditions when they live in the US. And what I said in the previous reply, I grant you, was quoted from the newspaper. 
| Quote: | | Rosalisa, I tend to think of this assassin as being more like Pol Pot. Do you think Pol Pot's madness could have been prevented earlier in his life? After all, he freely chose to think what he thought, and to do what he did. |
Jamie (K), I am the next generation after the one suffering from what Pol Pot did so I don't claim to know everything about what happened during Pot Pot regime. But from what I have read and understood from other people like my family, Pol Pot had a very noticeable childhood.
You mentioned that this assissin "did not have any visible problem in childhood, so college may have been the first time anyone noticed trouble, and by that time he was an adult and just did what he wanted to". However, the case is probably quite different from Pol Pot's. Pol Pot, perhaps you have read much about him, lived through a time when Cambodia was still in control of the French colony. His childhood, I think, could cause him to do what he thought to do afterwards. Everything he met in his childhood influenced him in every way. Though he looked calm, he was full of thoughts. But who really knows who joined hands with Pol Pot in the case? No, childhood that people think is not noticeable doesn't mean it is not a problem. And I don't think a happy childhood of people can lead them to wrong-doing in their later lives.
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Rosalisa
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Joined: 02 Aug 2006
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| Thu Apr 19, 2007 19:32 pm I wonder how do you feel about the worst massacre in the US? |
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Hi,guys
I am wondering that ,here, 'These columns long ago noted the collapse of such social and moral restraints in a widely debated editorial called "No Guardrails." '. What does 'No Guardrails' mean? Has it hint something? Thanks in advance.
Maggie 
| Jamie (K) wrote: | Remember one thing first: Neither of the two deadliest terrorist attacks in US history involved guns. One was carried out with box cutters and airplanes (the 9/11 attacks), and one was carried out with exploding fertilizer (the Oklahoma City bombing). Both attacks killed thousands of people, but we can't make box opening knives, airplanes or fertilizer illegal.
Another thing is that it's already not easy to get guns legally in the US. Generally, you have to order the gun, get fingerprinted, undergo a criminal background check, and wait 45 days before you can actually pick up the gun. The laws vary from state to state, but that's basically it. The attacker in Virginia had a clean police record, so he was able to buy both of his guns legally.
As the number of restrictions on gun use in the US have increased, so has the murder rate. When guns were less restricted, there were far fewer murders. The simple reason is that criminals usually don't attack a victim if they think the person might be armed. Some US states have rolled back their gun laws in the past several years, so that any person who is not a convicted criminal is allowed to carry a concealed weapon. The result has been a DECREASE in violent crime, not an INCREASE. Since anyone might be hiding a gun, criminals are more afraid to attack.
You can't convince me that in Taiwan only the police have guns. Surely plenty of criminals also have guns, and ordinary people can't resist those criminals, because they are unarmed. This is true in every country that has strict gun laws. Gun laws only restrict gun use and ownership by people who follow the law. Criminals just do whatever they want.
Korean Americans don't have any more violence in their lives than other Americans, but if your local newspaper cherry picks violent incidents, it might look like that from afar. Some Korean Americans have actually told me that things are better for them here than they were in South Korea. For one thing, they told me that kids in South Korea are under so much pressure to pass important exams at school that a lot of children and teenagers commit suicide there. I don't know, because I've never been to South Korea, but I do know how Koreans live in the US, and they tend to live better than most people here.
You'll notice from the news reports that people did try to intevene and get help for the assassin in Virginia, but it didn't do any good. One thing that people often ignore is that there really is such a thing as evil, and that some people choose to embrace evil and do evil things. Many such people don't respond to any kind of help or counseling.
It's very possible this assassin did not have any visible problem in childhood, so college may have been the first time anyone noticed trouble, and by that time he was an adult and just did what he wanted to.
The Wall Street Journal had something interesting to say about the situation today:
| Quote: | | A better response than gun control would be to restore some of the cultural taboos that once served as restraints on antisocial behavior. These columns long ago noted the collapse of such social and moral restraints in a widely debated editorial called "No Guardrails." Instead, after Columbine, there was a rush to blame violent videogames. But videogames or other larger media influences don't inspire mass murder when there are countervailing restraints and values instilled by families, teachers, coaches and pastors. Two generations ago, colleges felt an obligation to act in loco parentis. Today, the concept is considered as archaic as the Latin -- and would probably inspire a lawsuit. |
Rosalisa, I tend to think of this assassin as being more like Pol Pot. Do you think Pol Pot's madness could have been prevented earlier in his life? After all, he freely chose to think what he thought, and to do what he did. |
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 Maggie
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| Thu Apr 19, 2007 19:52 pm I wonder how do you feel about the worst massacre in the US? |
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Hi,Jamie
First,thanks for your response. I have two questions.
The first question is that 'The simple reason is that criminals usually don't attack a victim if they think the person might be armed. ' I am not sure this actually. I am simply thinking that if oneday,most people who stay in Taiwan,they can easily get guns. If some workers have different opinions and very very bad mood,would they kill each other? If yes,is it very terrible and dangerous ?
The second question is that 'Many such people don't respond to any kind of help or counseling.' I can't make sense why you think so. Actually,I am thinking about if it's very dangerous if people would get hurt wheather they try to help attackers,I mean,the first case of the worst massacre. Someone tried to help the South-Korea American,but he/she was killed by the South-Korea American. Oh! I simply can't accept this one. Afterward,if anyone would want to help others? Sorry for my poor English,and I am not sure if you can make sense.
Greetings!
Maggie
| Jamie (K) wrote: | Remember one thing first: Neither of the two deadliest terrorist attacks in US history involved guns. One was carried out with box cutters and airplanes (the 9/11 attacks), and one was carried out with exploding fertilizer (the Oklahoma City bombing). Both attacks killed thousands of people, but we can't make box opening knives, airplanes or fertilizer illegal.
Another thing is that it's already not easy to get guns legally in the US. Generally, you have to order the gun, get fingerprinted, undergo a criminal background check, and wait 45 days before you can actually pick up the gun. The laws vary from state to state, but that's basically it. The attacker in Virginia had a clean police record, so he was able to buy both of his guns legally.
As the number of restrictions on gun use in the US have increased, so has the murder rate. When guns were less restricted, there were far fewer murders. The simple reason is that criminals usually don't attack a victim if they think the person might be armed. Some US states have rolled back their gun laws in the past several years, so that any person who is not a convicted criminal is allowed to carry a concealed weapon. The result has been a DECREASE in violent crime, not an INCREASE. Since anyone might be hiding a gun, criminals are more afraid to attack.
You can't convince me that in Taiwan only the police have guns. Surely plenty of criminals also have guns, and ordinary people can't resist those criminals, because they are unarmed. This is true in every country that has strict gun laws. Gun laws only restrict gun use and ownership by people who follow the law. Criminals just do whatever they want.
Korean Americans don't have any more violence in their lives than other Americans, but if your local newspaper cherry picks violent incidents, it might look like that from afar. Some Korean Americans have actually told me that things are better for them here than they were in South Korea. For one thing, they told me that kids in South Korea are under so much pressure to pass important exams at school that a lot of children and teenagers commit suicide there. I don't know, because I've never been to South Korea, but I do know how Koreans live in the US, and they tend to live better than most people here.
You'll notice from the news reports that people did try to intevene and get help for the assassin in Virginia, but it didn't do any good. One thing that people often ignore is that there really is such a thing as evil, and that some people choose to embrace evil and do evil things. Many such people don't respond to any kind of help or counseling.
It's very possible this assassin did not have any visible problem in childhood, so college may have been the first time anyone noticed trouble, and by that time he was an adult and just did what he wanted to.
The Wall Street Journal had something interesting to say about the situation today:
| Quote: | | A better response than gun control would be to restore some of the cultural taboos that once served as restraints on antisocial behavior. These columns long ago noted the collapse of such social and moral restraints in a widely debated editorial called "No Guardrails." Instead, after Columbine, there was a rush to blame violent videogames. But videogames or other larger media influences don't inspire mass murder when there are countervailing restraints and values instilled by families, teachers, coaches and pastors. Two generations ago, colleges felt an obligation to act in loco parentis. Today, the concept is considered as archaic as the Latin -- and would probably inspire a lawsuit. |
Rosalisa, I tend to think of this assassin as being more like Pol Pot. Do you think Pol Pot's madness could have been prevented earlier in his life? After all, he freely chose to think what he thought, and to do what he did. |
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In my view,the more mistakes someone else corrects me,the more I could learn.
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Maggie
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| Thu Apr 19, 2007 21:50 pm I wonder how do you feel about the worst massacre in the US? |
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| A guardrail is the metal railing along the side of a highway. When a car is out of control, the guardrail protects the traffic on the other side of the road by stopping the car. A guardrail might also protect a car from falling from the road down the side of a mountain. |
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Jamie (K)
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Joined: 24 Feb 2006
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Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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| Thu Apr 19, 2007 23:35 pm I wonder how do you feel about the worst massacre in the US? |
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| Maggie wrote: | | The first question is that 'The simple reason is that criminals usually don't attack a victim if they think the person might be armed. ' I am not sure this actually. I am simply thinking that if oneday,most people who stay in Taiwan,they can easily get guns. If some workers have different opinions and very very bad mood,would they kill each other? If yes,is it very terrible and dangerous ? |
Just having the guns doesn't cause people to shoot each other. The shooting is caused by someone being mentally deranged and having no interest in controlling himself.
| Maggie wrote: | | The second question is that 'Many such people don't respond to any kind of help or counseling.' I can't make sense why you think so. Actually,I am thinking about if it's very dangerous if people would get hurt wheather they try to help attackers,I mean,the first case of the worst massacre. Someone tried to help the South-Korea American,but he/she was killed by the South-Korea American. Oh! I simply can't accept this one. Afterward,if anyone would want to help others? Sorry for my poor English,and I am not sure if you can make sense. |
What I meant was that some people who have chosen to be evil don't care if someone tries to help them. They won't get better, because their evil is a conscious choice, and so no therapy or help works on them. |
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Jamie (K)
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 4337
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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| Fri Apr 20, 2007 17:10 pm I wonder how do you feel about the worst massacre in the US? |
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Maggie
In addition to what Jamie said (those who choose to be evil, though they have the capacity to change), some people cannot change.
These are commonly referred to as sociopaths and/or psychopaths. They tend to view the world as their playground, and other people as toys for them to use as they see fit.
Schizophrenics are typically not as prone to violence as sociopaths/psychopaths, but when you are delusional or suffer from other severe forms of mental dysfunction, as schizophrenics do -- sometimes you strike out at the "voices" or "visions". Some schizophrenics are capable of acts of violence due to their severe delusions.
The difference between sociopathy/psychopathy, in terms of treatment, is that there is no known treatment for socio/psychopathy. On the other hand, there are drugs for treating the symptoms of schizophrenia.
Schizos (those who suffer psychosis/-es) can be helped with medicine; sociopaths cannot. (to my knowledge, anyway).
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prezbucky
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Location: Nashville, TN (USA)
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| Fri Apr 20, 2007 19:15 pm I wonder how do you feel about the worst massacre in the US? |
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Hi,prezbucky
You definitely answered my doubt. After seeing Jamie's post,I think he considers that people can't change MANY of these kinds of persons. And I think it looks like a theory that people are not good after they were born. I am not sure if you know what I mean. Actually, I mean that some people think babies should have BAD hearts when they simply were born. So we need to educate them. Another people think babies should have GOOD hearts when they simply were born. And the bad environment causes them to do bad things. Something like that.
And I am thinking about why I havent thought about we can not change somebody. Mabye I havent encoutered this kind of person. Nevertheless, the South-Korea Amercian didn't look like a person who had a psychosis. It's really weird.
Greetings!
Maggie
| prezbucky wrote: | Maggie
In addition to what Jamie said (those who choose to be evil, though they have the capacity to change), some people cannot change.
These are commonly referred to as sociopaths and/or psychopaths. They tend to view the world as their playground, and other people as toys for them to use as they see fit.
Schizophrenics are typically not as prone to violence as sociopaths/psychopaths, but when you are delusional or suffer from other severe forms of mental dysfunction, as schizophrenics do -- sometimes you strike out at the "voices" or "visions". Some schizophrenics are capable of acts of violence due to their severe delusions.
The difference between sociopathy/psychopathy, in terms of treatment, is that there is no known treatment for socio/psychopathy. On the other hand, there are drugs for treating the symptoms of schizophrenia.
Schizos (those who suffer psychosis/-es) can be helped with medicine; sociopaths cannot. (to my knowledge, anyway). |
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Maggie
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| Fri Apr 20, 2007 23:57 pm I wonder how do you feel about the worst massacre in the US? |
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| Another thing nobody seems to be talking about when it comes to this killer is that he had obviously been indoctrinated into some kind of Marxist ideology of class envy that glorifies violent rebellion by the "oppressed". ("Oppressed", to pampered North American kids can mean something as stupid as not getting into the exact university you wanted and driving a Chevy instead of a BMW.) Usually, kids who have been brainwashed in this way don't hurt anyone (except themselves in various ways), eventually grow out of this mentality and become decent people who respect others. However, some people get very wrapped up in a fantasy of Marxist revolution, death to the bourgeoisie, or whatever you want to call it. These people can go gun crazy and start collecting assault weapons and other kinds of firearms and explosives. They can be very scary to live near. |
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Jamie (K)
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Joined: 24 Feb 2006
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Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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| Tue Apr 24, 2007 12:32 pm I wonder how do you feel about the worst massacre in the US? |
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Hi Jamie,
You wrote:
| Quote: | | What I meant was that some people who have chosen to be evil don't care if someone tries to help them. They won't get better, because their evil is a conscious choice, and so no therapy or help works on them. |
Are you an expert on this or are you just telling us what you think?
EU |
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Englishuser
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| Tue Apr 24, 2007 12:49 pm I wonder how do you feel about the worst massacre in the US? |
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| I am telling you what I've seen. Not everyone can be reformed. Even experts can tell you that. |
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Jamie (K)
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
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Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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