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 #17 (permalink) Mon May 28, 2007 13:19 pm What mistake bugs you the most in your language? |
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| Englishuser wrote: |
| Seriously, you don't think there are as many Michigan residents as there are Commonwealth residents? |
I don't understand what you're trying to ask me here.
| Englishuser wrote: |
| Contrary to what you say I think most students of English as a Foreign Language today learn "International English". Textbooks tend to include some British and American terms, but that's mostly to teach the students about British and American culture. EFL learners are seldom expected to produce such terms in their own writing in the EFL classroom. |
But when the rubber meets the road, in most classrooms the local English of England will be treated like the ONLY English, and the kids won't be expected to know the more internationally intelligible terms.
You're also not considering the fact that in some countries the schools don't often use British- or American-produced textbooks that contain English as it is really used. In many places they use locally produced textbooks written by non-native speakers. They're edited at some point by a native speaker, but if the native speaker and the non-native-speaking author disagree on something, the author usually wins. These books usually have covers emblazoned with a Union Jack and often have a cartoon drawing of a Beefeater. Inside, they will have characters attending a "secondary grammar school" that is maintained by a "school servant", and they might talk about Africa as being inhabited by "Negroes". I even saw one once, where a lesson's whole dialogue was one long, unintentional dirty pun that would have been funny in any English-speaking country.
The tendency in Western Europe is to use textbooks written in the countries where the languages are spoken, but this is not typical in every country, including mine, where you might have to use a fat textbook called "French Today by Edwin H. Schlumberger, Fiona O'Malley and Mar?a Hernandez". |
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Jamie (K)
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| #18 (permalink) Mon May 28, 2007 13:29 pm What mistake bugs you the most in your language? |
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| Torsten wrote: |
| How significant do you think is the difference between British English and American English? How can a person learn "only" British English in an era of TV and Internet? How many expressions are there in British English that are not understood by Americans? How many expressions used by British or American teenagers are not understood by their parents? |
Generally speaking, it isn't a problem for an American to communicate with a Brit who speaks relatively standard British English. Certain British dialects can be very difficult for an American to understand, though. The biggest differences probably occur in slang or very informal English, in certain idioms and expressions (especially ones that are very culturally based), and in certain vocabulary. There are also some differences in usage that might cause one English native speaker to misjudge the register of something that another native speaker has just said. For example, a particular usage might be judged as being "heavy". As you probably recall, Alan categorized the use of the subjunctive as "heavy" in a recent thread. To American ears, however, the usage in question would sound quite normal and not "heavy" at all.
How many differences are there? Thousands? Hundreds of thousands? I don't know. Although not all of them are significant enough to cause a problem, some things are exclusive enough to one single version of English that I strongly feel it's worth pointing out.
I find it absolutely inexcusable that Alan, a so-called ESL expert, finds it necessary to resort to insults simply because the reality is that not everyone speaks his particular brand of English. I find it inexcusable that Alan sees fit to insult people simply because they dare to mention that something is different or wouldn't be understood in American English.
You have some tests on this site with idioms that I don't know. I don't know them because they are exclusive to British English. I know a lot more British idioms now than I did 20 years ago, but that is only because I have been involved in teaching ESL in Europe, have used British as well as American ESL books, and because I've had British neighbors and British colleagues. But I by no means know all British idioms and expressions.
You test people about some of these "one-version-of-English-only" things on this site, but don't bother to mention how limited the usage is. I believe telling a test-taker just how and where something can be and is used is valuable information. Alan seems to want to cover all of this information up. He appears to be in denial. |
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Yankee
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| #19 (permalink) Mon May 28, 2007 13:31 pm What mistake bugs you the most in your language? |
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doing my exercises, I came across this dialogue in a textbook:
--My house is on fire
--I ... call the Fire Department
(I was supposed to choose between 1. will, 2. Am going to)
The right choise was 1. Will, but my American friend went for 2. Am going to. He said that will here is kinda lame and doesnt reflect the gravity of the situation.
After that I started to doubt what those textbooks teach me. |
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Lost_Soul
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| #20 (permalink) Mon May 28, 2007 13:33 pm What mistake bugs you the most in your language? |
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Hi Jamie,
| Quote: |
| I don't understand what you're trying to ask me here. |
I meant that you probably agree that British/Commonwealth English is a very common and widely understood variety of English. It is much more reasonable to ask the Michigan resident to learn Commonwealth English than it is to ask a Commonwealth (or Virginia) resident to learn your local terminology.
| Quote: |
| You're also not considering the fact that in some countries the schools don't often use British- or American-produced textbooks that contain English as it is really used. In many places they use locally produced textbooks written by non-native speakers. |
You still learn some English if you study those books. Differencies between British and American English are usually not much of an issue to beginners.
All the best
EU |
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Englishuser
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| #21 (permalink) Mon May 28, 2007 13:42 pm What mistake bugs you the most in your language? |
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As an American, I can tell you that your American friend is wrong.
"Will" is correct in that response for two reasons: (1) It is a promise, and (2) The speaker has decided to call the fire department right at the moment of speaking. This is standard English usage all over the world, including in the US.
On the contrary, using "going to" would not reflect the gravity of the situation, because, depending on how it's said, it can mean something like, "Okay! Okay! Just be patient. I know I have to call the fire department, and I'll do it pretty soon."
You have to be cautious with the grammatical judgments of most Americans in their 20s and 30s, because many of them were taught no, or almost no grammar in school, and they weren't made to read enough. |
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Jamie (K)
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Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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| #22 (permalink) Mon May 28, 2007 13:44 pm What mistake bugs you the most in your language? |
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Hi LS
I see your friend's point about the "lameness" of will in your sentence, but probably for a different reason. I also understand why your book thinks will is better.
On the other hand, how likely is it that you would actually bother to announce your intention to call the fire department if your house was currently going up in flames? Wouldn't you simply make the call? (Or issue a frantic command for someone else to do it?)  |
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Yankee
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| #23 (permalink) Mon May 28, 2007 13:51 pm What mistake bugs you the most in your language? |
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| Englishuser wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I don't understand what you're trying to ask me here. |
I meant that you probably agree that British/Commonwealth English is a very common and widely understood variety of English. It is much more reasonable to ask the Michigan resident to learn Commonwealth English than it is to ask a Commonwealth (or Virginia) resident to learn your local terminology. |
What kind of English do you imagine people in Virginia speak? In a case like the one I mentioned, the Michigander and the Virginian are both speaking General American (although the Michigan resident's pronunciation will usually be more standard). It's just that the local administrative terminology differs from state to state.
Besides this, the Virginian hears the equivalent of the Michigan dialect day in and day out on TV and the radio.
Anyway, if you want to go by sheer numbers, native speakers of English in the British Commonwealth are by far fewer than native speakers of General American, so your logic doesn't work. I don't think speakers of either variety need to learn the other. I just think that people need to disambiguate.
| Englishuser wrote: |
| Quote: |
| You're also not considering the fact that in some countries the schools don't often use British- or American-produced textbooks that contain English as it is really used. In many places they use locally produced textbooks written by non-native speakers. |
You still learn some English if you study those books. Differencies between British and American English are usually not much of an issue to beginners. |
They can be enough to cause a few problems. |
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Jamie (K)
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| #24 (permalink) Mon May 28, 2007 15:11 pm What mistake bugs you the most in your language? |
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| Yankee wrote: |
| I find it absolutely inexcusable that Alan, a so-called ESL expert |
Amy, I find it inexcusable to call Alan "a so-called ESL expert". I think Alan is indeed an ESL expert. Anyone who is interested in his professional background can get this information on our site. Please do try to focus on the topic at hand.
| Yankee wrote: |
| finds it necessary to resort to insults simply because the reality is that not everyone speaks his particular brand of English. I find it inexcusable that Alan sees fit to insult people simply because they dare to mention that something is different or wouldn't be understood in American English. |
Amy, what you define as "insults" is really up to you and that hasn't much to do with the ongoing discussion.
| Yankee wrote: |
| You have some tests on this site with idioms that I don't know. I don't know them because they are exclusive to British English. I know a lot more British idioms now than I did 20 years ago, but that is only because I have been involved in teaching ESL in Europe, have used British as well as American ESL books, and because I've had British neighbors and British colleagues. But I by no means know all British idioms and expressions. |
We have never claimed our materials to be written in "American English".
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Torsten
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| #25 (permalink) Mon May 28, 2007 16:51 pm What mistake bugs you the most in your language? |
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| Torsten wrote: |
| Yankee wrote: |
| I find it absolutely inexcusable that Alan, a so-called ESL expert |
Amy, I find it inexcusable to call Alan "a so-called ESL expert". I think Alan is indeed an ESL expert. Anyone who is interested in his professional background can get this information on our site. Please do try to focus on the topic at hand. OK, he calls himself an "ESL expert". Does that mean that you agree that an "ESL expert" should argue that differences do not exist? Doesn't focusing on a topic include mentioning what would and would not be understood and/or used in other versions of English. Or does focusing on a topic include suggesting that someone whose native language is American English knows less than Alan about what exists or does not exist in the US?
| Yankee wrote: |
| finds it necessary to resort to insults simply because the reality is that not everyone speaks his particular brand of English. I find it inexcusable that Alan sees fit to insult people simply because they dare to mention that something is different or wouldn't be understood in American English. |
Amy, what you define as "insults" is really up to you and that hasn't much to do with the ongoing discussion. I disagree with that, Torsten. This has been Alan's decision and habit for quite some time now. It's not a matter of what I define as insults.
| Yankee wrote: |
| You have some tests on this site with idioms that I don't know. I don't know them because they are exclusive to British English. I know a lot more British idioms now than I did 20 years ago, but that is only because I have been involved in teaching ESL in Europe, have used British as well as American ESL books, and because I've had British neighbors and British colleagues. But I by no means know all British idioms and expressions. |
We have never claimed our materials to be written in "American English". That is certainly not what I wrote or even remotely what I suggested, and to be honest, it sounds like the sort of cock-eyed statement Alan would come up with. You seem to have missed the point entirely. My point was that not every British expression will be understood by an American. I think it would be useful for many learners to know that certain things are used or expressed differently in different places. After all, some learners need their English for work or study in or with people in a particular country -- and the country is not the UK by default. Do we do such people a service by hiding or denying differences? Do we help them by suggesting that an exclusively British expression is the most appropriate one for use in the US? I do not understand why Alan, as an "ESL expert", gets upset when someone suggests that there are usages other than British ones or why he seems bent on suggesting that it can't possibly be true that some British expressions simply are not used, and in some cases not even understood, in the US.
You do not note things such as "mainly BE" or "mainly AmE" in your tests. Therefore, the only possible way to identify any differences is if someone writes a post about it. Is it really your honest opinion that Alan eagerly embraces that sort of input? It is my opinion that he does not. |
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Yankee
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| #26 (permalink) Mon May 28, 2007 17:02 pm What mistake bugs you the most in your language? |
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| Torsten wrote: |
| We have never claimed our materials to be written in "American English". |
Do you claim anywhere that they are in "international English"? If so, then it would be honest to indicate that some local British terms or idioms are not understandable to most English speakers. For example, a word like "dodgy" is not international, and some people (like me) never can figure out what it means. When most native English speakers hear "chemist", they think it means a chemical scientist. Using it to mean "pharmacist" or "pharmacy" is basically British slang, and this needs to be indicated. (Although in some people's minds, almost nothing British can be slang, and almost everything American is slang.)
On the other hand, if you haven't claimed the materials are in international English, then there's no issue.
The issue of "international English" is interesting in itself. Sometimes agencies in Europe have sent me things to translate into "international English", and I have to clarify what they mean. Sometimes they mean standard British English (which isn't completely international), sometimes they mean American business terminology, sometimes they mean any kind of English but spellchecked with the "English (UK)" dictionary. |
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Jamie (K)
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| #27 (permalink) Mon May 28, 2007 17:04 pm What mistake bugs you the most in your language? |
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On my hobby horse
http://www.english-test.net/forum/ftopic10945.html |
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Yankee
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 Diverhank
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| #29 (permalink) Mon May 28, 2007 18:43 pm What mistake bugs you the most in your language? |
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here are some of my pet peeves:
- "cannot" being split into two words. The traditional spelling is one word: cannot. There was never a reason to split it into two words. The only time this makes sense is when you want to put emphasis on "not"... even then it can be done in one-word form: cannot.
- irregardless. This is a logical absurdity -- the "irre-" prefix is negative, as is the "-less" suffix. Therefore, the actual meaning of this "word" is "with total regard to". what's most frustrating, perhaps, is that people really mean "regardless"... which is a valid word.
Misuse of apostrophes:
-"Gregs dog is cool."
-"Lets get some soda's."
-"I'm going to the Smith's house." (as opposed to the Smiths' house)
unnecessary letters (a lesser peeve):
- Empathy/empath(et)ic -- It's empathy, not empathety.
- To orientate, orientated -- to orient & oriented are fine
- Apathy/apath(et)ic, sympathy/sympath(et)ic -- see "Empathy..."
Misuse of your/you're, there/their, too/to, etc.
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Prezbucky
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Yankee
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| Man in a hurry. | Read the signs! |
)
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) is the use of "words" such as "u" and "your" and "thnx".