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 #17 (permalink) Thu Jun 28, 2007 16:01 pm Funny but respectable |
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| Conchita wrote: |
| Well, I think you're forgetting other more important reasons for doing that, such as the need to keep a little piece of home far away from home or the need to band together in an often hostile host country. |
Hi Conchita
I agree with the idea of wanting to keep a little bit of home, but I strongly disagree that a host country is necessarily or usually a hostile environment. To me, hostility is most likely to happen when people insist on isolating themselves -- in essence a rejection the host country and its language and culture. I think such a rejection may simply be a case of "comfortable, easy and convenient". However, it may also be a hostile rejection and/or perceived as a hostile rejection.
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Yankee
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| #18 (permalink) Thu Jun 28, 2007 16:10 pm Funny but respectable |
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| Jamie (K) wrote: |
| Both teenagers and adults are better at learning languages than small children are |
Surely this theory can't apply to pronunciation? It's ever so amazing to see how easily and automatically young children pick up new sounds, as compared to teenagers or adults, who need a good deal of effort and immersion to be able to speak without a foreign accent, however willing they are to learn -- even then, only those with a very good ear manage to achieve a relatively acceptable pronunciation and intonation. |
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Conchita
Language Coach
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| #19 (permalink) Thu Jun 28, 2007 16:15 pm Funny but respectable |
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| prezbucky wrote: |
Southerners struggle with the same thing -- adults as well as kids:
A Coke is a Coke.
A Diet Coke is a Coke.
A Pepsi is a Coke.
A Sprite is a Coke.
etc.
hehe |
At my mom's village, green is green and blue is green too. Crazy people. |
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NinaZara
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| #20 (permalink) Thu Jun 28, 2007 16:19 pm Funny but respectable |
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| Yankee wrote: |
I strongly disagree that a host country is necessarily or usually a hostile environment. To me, hostility is most likely to happen when people insist on isolating themselves -- in essence rejecting the host country and its language and culture.
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To me, hostility begins when the word isolation is used. |
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Conchita
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| #21 (permalink) Thu Jun 28, 2007 16:22 pm Funny but respectable |
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Hi Conchita
I just wanted to add that it was my experience in Germany that a common native language drew "non-Germans" together more often than anything else. So, when native speakers of English banded together, the group would often consist of various nationalities: British, American, Canadian, Australian, etc. The same was true of native speakers of other languages.
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| #22 (permalink) Thu Jun 28, 2007 16:31 pm Funny but respectable |
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| Conchita wrote: |
| To me, hostility begins when the word isolation is used. |
But don't you see that "isolation" is precisely what people impose on themselves when they don't learn the language of the country they live in? Language is all about communication and if you can't speak and don't bother to learn the language of your adopted country, how can you expect to communicate and mix with the natives of that country? The answer is, often you can't. The lack of a common language is a barrier. And barriers often result in isolation. That is a simple fact.
Neither my use the word "isolation" and nor the fact that I believe that barriers lead to isolation is in and of itself a cause or indication of hostility. Isolation is a factual concept. It is not the mere use of the word "isolation", but rather the fact that the barriers and resulting isolation exist which can lead to hostility and/or perceived hostility.
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_________________
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Yankee
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| #23 (permalink) Thu Jun 28, 2007 17:26 pm Funny but respectable |
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| Conchita wrote: |
| Jamie (K) wrote: |
| Both teenagers and adults are better at learning languages than small children are |
Surely this theory can't apply to pronunciation? It's ever so amazing to see how easily and automatically young children pick up new sounds, as compared to teenagers or adults, who need a good deal of effort and immersion to be able to speak without a foreign accent, however willing they are to learn -- even then, only those with a very good ear manage to achieve a relatively acceptable pronunciation and intonation. |
The accent is the only thing teenagers and adults are not as good at. However, I wonder about that too, because I see a lot of people who moved to the US as children or were born here, started learning English at about age 5, and still have a foreign accent as adults. |
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Jamie (K)
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| #24 (permalink) Thu Jun 28, 2007 17:32 pm Funny but respectable |
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| Conchita wrote: |
| Yankee wrote: |
I strongly disagree that a host country is necessarily or usually a hostile environment. To me, hostility is most likely to happen when people insist on isolating themselves -- in essence rejecting the host country and its language and culture.
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To me, hostility begins when the word isolation is used. |
Oh, please, Conchita! Do you always think that bad emotions in the minority are caused by something hurtful that the majority did to them? This is really a foolish worldview, and it doesn't stand up to empirical observation. The hostility of the minority comes first, so they isolate themselves. AFTER THAT, people use the word isolation.
Please realize that hate for the majority can come even before contact comes, as we often see among some Arabic Muslims who hate the US or Europe and then move there anyway. They have a hostile, belligerent attitude toward Americans and Europeans even before they buy their plane ticket. I've seen it.
Not everybody is a bunny rabbit, you know. |
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Jamie (K)
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| #25 (permalink) Thu Jun 28, 2007 19:18 pm Funny but respectable |
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| Yankee wrote: |
It is not the mere use of the word "isolation", but rather the fact that the barriers and resulting isolation exist which can lead to hostility and/or perceived hostility.
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I'm afraid the cause for hostility is much deeper than that. Some people will always be unwelcoming and unfriendly, no matter how well foreigners speak their language. The unforgivable sin is to be different and therefore “strange”. I shouldn’t use the term ‘foreigners’, really, but rather ‘immigrants’ because this phenomenon doesn’t usually happen with tourists or rich-looking people from abroad. In these cases, a different language isn’t much of a barrier, curiously.
On the other hand, the newly arrived (immigrants) will often, and understandably, look for something familiar, be it culture, language or food. If they dare to remain true to their traditions and, perhaps worse, to their religion, they’ll be even less accepted and will then be said to live isolated from their host society and blamed for it. Which will result in more resentment.
This in turn will exacerbate the vicious circle of intolerance. And Jamie's last racist comments are the living proof of it. |
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Conchita
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| #26 (permalink) Thu Jun 28, 2007 19:46 pm Funny but respectable |
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I sort of agree with both of you, and disagree with both of you.
There are certainly instances in which minorities hate the majority without instigation... and cases in which actions by the majority do cause such dislike.
Minorities blame the majority, while the majority scoffs and says "it's your problem, not mine."
Some do this sort of finger-pointing, anyway, and maybe neither side is right. There are likely varying degrees of validity.
Maybe it all depends on who has the burden of action (or who has MORE of it):
Is it the minority's responsibility to become positively involved in a population?
Or is it the majority's responsibility to bring them into the fold?
I'm going to side more with the former -- if you want so badly to be in a country, then it would behoove you to get involved in that country in an acceptable fashion according to that country's culture.
Anecdote:
You don't step into a stranger's house and rearrange their furniture.
You MAY go to the stranger's parties, yes. If you go, you conduct yourself in a friendly/respectful manner. And MAYBE such good behavior gets you invited to the next party. Certainly your chances improve if you mingle with others as opposed to sitting in a corner by yourself, sulking or -- worse -- whining that you're not getting enough attention, or that there isn't enough beer, or that the beer is too warm, etc.
On the other hand, I don't think you disrespect anyone on sight. It's my personal view that the way to treat others is to respect them off the bat, be kind to them, etc. Make them act badly before you lower your opinion of them -- before you kick them out of the party, so to speak.
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Prezbucky
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| #27 (permalink) Thu Jun 28, 2007 20:05 pm Funny but respectable |
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I did want to point out, Conchita, that racism can be an action of the minority too. A person/act doesn't have to be in the majority (or come from the majority) to be considered racism.
We have had quite a lot of trouble with a double-standard here in the States when it comes to defining racism.
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Prezbucky
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| #28 (permalink) Thu Jun 28, 2007 23:58 pm Funny but respectable |
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| Conchita wrote: |
I'm afraid the cause for hostility is much deeper than that. Some people will always be unwelcoming and unfriendly, no matter how well foreigners speak their language. The unforgivable sin is to be different and therefore “strange”. I shouldn’t use the term ‘foreigners’, really, but rather ‘immigrants’ because this phenomenon doesn’t usually happen with tourists or rich-looking people from abroad. In these cases, a different language isn’t much of a barrier, curiously.
On the other hand, the newly arrived (immigrants) will often, and understandably, look for something familiar, be it culture, language or food. If they dare to remain true to their traditions and, perhaps worse, to their religion, they’ll be even less accepted and will then be said to live isolated from their host society and blamed for it. Which will result in more resentment.
This in turn will exacerbate the vicious circle of intolerance. And Jamie's last racist comments are the living proof of it. |
Hi Conchita
Clearly I wasn't referring to tourists in my previous posts. And clearly my posts have focused on language. That does not mean that I don't know anything about other things. Hostility can begin outside a group. Isolation can be imposed from without or from within. Hostility can also emanate from (begin within) a community which has isolated itself for whatever reason.
Clearly, the language skill necessary for tourists is quite different from the language skill needed by residents of a country.
Clearly not everyone is as nice or as tolerant or as rich or as poor or as good-looking or as ugly or as stupid or as intelligent or as whatever as everybody else. All people are different. That goes without saying, doesn't it?
I beg to differ with your suggestion that rich (or rich-looking) people are automatically accepted and therefore not isolated. It may sometimes be only their "perceived" money that is readily accepted -- not the rich(-looking) people themselves. And have you never heard of rich people intentionally isolating themselves? I wonder how often Queen Liz socializes with British blue collar workers. I bet she doesn't go to the corner pub every Saturday night. But, that is a different kind of isolation and not the topic I was focused on. My focus had been on the language aspect of integration into a society.
The US is probably one of the most (if not the most) tolerant nations on earth when it comes to religion. We've got everything here -- and then some. I grew up in a town with a population of about 10,000 and there were 18 different churches in my town alone -- each one was a different denomination, and not all were Christian.
Cultural differences? The US has embraced a multitude of various "foreign" customs. When I was in Germany, I tried to embrace or at least respect local customs -- even though I found some ridiculous (for example, not being allowed to hang up your wash outside to dry on a Sunday -- and "Kehrwoche" was also an entertaining custom that I adopted). But I think the very first step that ought to be made by an immigrant to any country is to learn the language of the host country. To me, that is a fundamental building block.
Racist? Based on some of the things I've seen generalized about Americans, maybe the same word ought to be tossed at a number of people in this forum. Heck, one forum member once wrote on this very site that he wished all Americans were dead (or something to that effect). Is that racism or shall we call that terrorism? Racism comes in all shapes and sizes and knows no national borders. Where racism exists, it is a real problem. But Jamie's point that it is not always the majority that is hostile is quite valid, in my opinion.
I've also seen plenty of instances in which someone claimed racism and/or discrimination where there was none at all. In the US, there are various "groups" with people who do this. It's usually not the whole group, but rather a small part of the group. One these "groups" is women. Sure, women historically haven't had the business opportunities that men have enjoyed, and for many, many years we didn't even have the right to vote. But things have changed. Nowadays there may still be some gender discrimination, however some women scream discrimination no matter what, and that doesn't achieve anything. Personally, I find it destructive. If the situation is that a man is more qualified for a job and/or has a superior work record, then it should be the man who gets the promotion. If the woman is better qualified, etc, then she should get it. Women who cry "discrimination" unjustifiably are simply looking for a scapegoat, in my opinion.
Likewise, some (but by no means all) Afro-Americans perceive discriminatory or racist activity by "whites" where none at all exists. Naturally, the history here has been one of slavery and discrimination. But, again, things have changed. However, some Afro-Americans seemingly can't or don't want to accept that most people are not racist. There seems to be a sort of "victim mentality". Here is just one small example of what I mean: At many shops, there are a variety of ways to pay for things and different shops have differing policies on whether or not additional ID must be shown with certain forms of payment. Now, if you weren't asked to produce additional ID in Shop A, but Shop B standardly requires additional ID, it wouldn't be too unusual if a customer asked Shop B why they were asking for ID. Most people -- whether black, white, yellow, red, green, male or female -- will simply accept the explanation that it is standard company policy. However, there is a noticeable minority of Afro-Americans who will immediately assume they are being singled out and discriminated against when a minimum-wage white cashier automatically requests ID. You can believe me when I say that the reaction of some Afro-Americans to such a request can be extremely hostile. This sort of groundless hostile reaction is certainly not the sort of thing that will make most people think better of them. And it tends to isolate.
I really didn't want to get into more than just the language aspect of isolation, but since the assumption seemed to have been that I blame all of societiy's ills on language alone, I figured I'd better mention that I am actually aware of a few things other than language. However, I still see a common language as a basic and necessary building block for integration into a society. Without it, isolation is much more likely to occur. That is my experience and that is what I believe. Obviously, though, there are many different things that may isolate or produce hostility.
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_________________
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Yankee
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| #29 (permalink) Fri Jun 29, 2007 13:22 pm Funny but respectable |
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"I beg to differ with your suggestion that rich (or rich-looking) people are automatically accepted and therefore not isolated. It may sometimes be only their "perceived" money that is readily accepted -- not the rich(-looking) people themselves. And have you never heard of rich people intentionally isolating themselves?"
Yeah, like the rich dude in a room full of communists.
hehe
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Prezbucky
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| #30 (permalink) Fri Jun 29, 2007 14:13 pm Funny but respectable |
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| Conchita wrote: |
| On the other hand, the newly arrived (immigrants) will often, and understandably, look for something familiar, be it culture, language or food. |
To me it's not understandable. I have been an immigrant myself, I didn't look for anything familiar, and I didn't join a community of people from my country or culture. To do so, in my opinion, is a form of bigotry.
| Conchita wrote: |
| If they dare to remain true to their traditions and, perhaps worse, to their religion, they’ll be even less accepted and will then be said to live isolated from their host society and blamed for it. Which will result in more resentment. |
Why do they move to a new country if they intend to "remain true" to their traditions? (I'm not talking about religion here.) Trying to transplant one's entire manner of living is a form of hostility to the host country and culture. It can also run afoul of the host country's law. Should the United States, in your opinion, out of "tolerance", exempt Yemenis and some other Middle Easterners from our statutory rape laws when they marry girls as young as 11 years old? (Don't call the comment "racist", because this type of couple really exists in my area, and husbands have been arrested when their wives have given birth in the hospital at age 12.) Should we send Americans to prison for 18 years but let such Yemenis run around free, because they "dare to remain true to their traditions"?
| Conchita wrote: |
| This in turn will exacerbate the vicious circle of intolerance. And Jamie's last racist comments are the living proof of it. |
Conchita, you are a purveyor of a different kind of racism that treats minorities as mascots and does not hold them to civil behavioral standards. You expect so little of them that when they behave hostilely or isolate themselves or commit various sorts of evil, you assume they are not capable of behaving better, and you point the finger at the majority and claim it's all their fault. In other words, the (let's assume white) majority is capable of living up to standards of civility, but the minority is not, and therefore the majority is to blame for the the bad behavior of the minority. You appear to think of immigrant minorities as "noble savages" in the Rousseau's sense. To use an expression often used in the US, you are guilt of "the soft bigotry of low expectations". |
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Jamie (K)
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