Some tips on punctuation from Mister Micawber

[Tom]

Hello, Mister Micawber

Almost in all forums, your profile says that punctuation is your hobby/ interest. I just want to know if there comes a point when one has complete command of punctuation—I mean, do you still need to study punctuation for further improvement? Are you sometimes stymied regarding the correct punctuation mark? How do you know that there is any room for improvement when you do not face any problem putting punctuation marks?

Could you give us one word of advice as how to improve our punctuation? Also, could you please recommend some good books on this topic?

Many, many thanks for constant support and help.

Tom

[Bruce]

Greetings Tom,
I am no expert on pronounciation but I can tell you that in the UK / GB
(United Kingdom / Great Britain) that the so called "Queens English"
began to become a serious subject around 1920 when the BBC
(British Broadcasting Company) started to broadcast Radio Programmes.
At that time of course, the radio was a new invention.
The main question was, "Which accent shall we use so that everybody
can understand the English language broadcasts". On the islands of GB &
Ireland there is a wonderful range of accents & dialects as in any country
of the world. In 1920, it was decided that "Queens English" or the so called,
"RP" (Received Pronounciation) should be spoken. Other names for the same
accent are of course; Oxford, Cambridge or Standard English.
This particular absolute correct English was spoken in the RP triangle of the
major English University Cities of Oxford, Cambridge and London and is
definitely spoken by all the leaders of business, commerce and industry in
the UK.
Which basically means all students of the said Universities (and other)
plus the so called "Public Schools" of Eton, Harrow and Gordonstoun in Scotland.
These are the breeding grounds of the future leaders in business, commerce,
industry, the government, the military and any other department which is responsible
for steering the country.
Obviously all the "aristocracy" or titled people : Lords, Ladies, Dukes, Duchesses,
Prince and Princesses etc. etc. are RP speakers.
You will find they are usually all blood relatives along the family lines.
RP English is a very correct and sometimes difficult pronounciation which a normal
everyday citizen in GB/UK smiles and laughs about.
RP English is spoken by less than 5% of the whole British and Irish population.
It is considered rather a language or accent for the elite but it is very clear
in it?s expression. Sometimes it sounds funny.

I would also be interested what Mr. MacCawber and Alan have to say.

For me the best way to practice pronounciation is to hear it (CD, DVD etc.)
and simply repeat it and repeat it (out loud) like a Mantra until you are confident
you have it right.
A great motivation is to copy one of your favourite film stars for example.
I have met many English learners from other countries
who have picked up a particular accent (British, American or Australian)
because that?s the country where they received their first exposure.

I hope my information helps somewhat with your understanding.
Best wishes, Bruce.
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[Yankee]

Hi Bruce

Coincidentally, I had my first opportunity to speak with Tom just yesterday -- via Skype. Tom speaks very nice English with a delightful accent that is typical of people from his neck of the woods. (I hope you don't mind my posting this, Tom.) Tom doesn't seem to have much difficulty speaking English clearly.

But I think you misread Tom's post, Bruce. He wanted more information about punctuation, not pronunciation.
.
_________________
Amy
.
ESL teacher, translator, and a native speaker of American English

[Ahmadov]

As far as I know there is no definite rule for punctuations. Well, we know when we put full point, but there is always debates about when should we use colons or semi-colons... I know that even in the BBC they use punctuation differently in different departments... I am saying this as a former employee of that organisation.
_________________
Learning is a sacred engagement.

[Bruce]

Greetings Amy,

Yes, you are quite right I did miss-read Tom?s Post.
He did ask about Punctuation and not Pronounciation.
Never mind. I?ll look at Tom?s Post again and see if I give
an answer at all.

Best Wishes, Bruce.

P.S. Sorry, about that Tom but at least you got some
background information about pronounciation.
_________________
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[prezbucky]

Yeah, there are different style/punctuation standards -- MLA, New York Times and AP (Associated Press) to name three.

Addressing the request for a one-word recommendation concerning how to master punctuation, well:

Practice!

There.

hehe

Seriously, practice helps. And at some point you have to pick a style... or use more than one, as you see fit [EG, you might like parts of one style book, another part (or some other parts) of a different style book, etc.].
_________________
Billie Jean is not my lover. Hee.

[Mister Micawber]

.
Sorry-- I didn't see this thread until just now.

Yes, I think a time comes when one has as complete a command of punctuation as humanly possible-- at least a time when one can quit studying it and rely on one's own sense of what punctuation (or omission of it) makes one's text most clear, smooth and straightforward. Punctuation remains only an aid, and not the core, of communicating. Of course, some writers have more talent at it than others; punctuation is part of the art of writing (see e.e. cummings, for example).

It is also certain that situations arise when nothing seems to solve the problem-- and then one must choose the best of several poor options. It is unfortunate that the language is linear, both spoken and written: sometimes two dimensions are not enough.
.
_________________
Canadian-American native speaker
who teaches English for a living at Mister Micawber's
ESL cafe: Interview with Mister Micawber

[Alan]

Hi Tom,

To me punctuation performs the same task as does a conductor for an orchestra. It puts you, the reader, straight if there is the slightest chance of confusion or misunderstanding. One of the secrets in the use of punctuation is to employ it sparingly. Too many marks trip you up as you read. A book published a few years back on punctuation has had a huge success. It is called: Eats (,) shoots and leaves

By Lynne Truss
Published 2004
Penguin Group (USA) Incorporated
ISBN 0786546336

It approaches the topic with a humorous slant as you will see from the cover showing a panda at the top of a ladder removing the comma in the title. If you leave out the comma, the meaning is that the panda eats (bamboo) shoots and also leaves (from a tree). If you insert the comma, the meaning changes to: The panda eats(has some food), shoots (fires a gun) and leaves (goes away). Thus you can see what a difference a little comma makes.

Alan
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[Tom]

I am very greatful to all of you!

Regards

Tom Archer

[Englishuser]

Hi Bruce,

You wrote:

[Bruce]

Greetings Englishuser (EU),

Yes, I think you could be right.
I am given to understand that RP English is spoken by the Elite 5% who rule GB & the UK and probably most of the world (through the British Empire).
I didn?t know there was an Upper RP although I guess you could call it that.
I don?t really know what you can call the very well spoken English which one hears on the TV, or especially by the BBC, except probably Standard RP.

The Upper RP as you call it does sound funny sometimes because it sounds so
put on and unnatural. We call it "talking with a plum in your mouth".

Do you know for definite?
I can learn something here aswell.
I would also now be interested to hear what Alan has to say about RP.
Maybe he can clarify the situation.

Best wishes, Bruce.
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[Alan]

Hi Bruce,

EU and I have had words (used in the sense I'm sure you understand) about RP and so called URP. I think there are huge out-of-date myths about the way people speak - often a hangover from the early part of the last century. People talk about BBC English and Oxford English thinking 1930 and not 2007. Having worked for the former and studied at the latter, I feel these generalisations are irrelevant. I prefer the description non-regional southern standard English. Not to say that I regard this description as the perfect accent - by no means. All I am saying is that's how I consider I speak. There are wonderful variations to be heard daily on BBC radio and none is better than the other. Long live the differences.

Alan
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You can read my EFL story Three Letters for You?

[prezbucky]

[Englishuser]

Hi Bruce and Alan,

[Alan]

Hi EU,