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 Mon Sep 24, 2007 20:53 pm errors in the tests |
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Hi Torsten
There is a small typo in this test question (Question 3).
The word paperweight is not hyphenated.
In question 10 of the same test, the word is should be changed to are:
Do you know how many ......... of wallpaper are needed to decorate this room?
http://www.english-test.net/esl/learn/english/grammar/ii116/esl-test.php
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| Mon Sep 24, 2007 23:48 pm errors in the tests |
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Many thanks Amy for your corrections.
I'll make them tomorrow.
Slava |
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Mister Micawber
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| Wed Sep 26, 2007 13:22 pm errors in the tests |
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Many thanks Charles,
I did it.
Slava |
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Mister Micawber
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| Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:12 am errors in the tests |
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This test needs a bit of repair:
http://www.english-test.net/esl/learn/english/grammar/ae045/esl-test.php
Sentence 1 would be better (more typical/standard) with a possessive adjective -- like this:
1. That little boy has ants in his pants.
Sentence 5 has the two most important words of the idiom in the wrong order! It should read this way:
5. I think her new boyfriend is a wolf in sheep's clothing.
FYI:
The idiom in sentence 6 is not idiomatic in North America, and probably would not be understood there at all.
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| Fri Oct 19, 2007 9:45 am errors in the tests |
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Hi Amy,
Thanks a lot for your comments. I've changed sentence 1 and 5 accordingly. As for the idiom in sentence 6, I've asked Linda to clarify this because she is from Canada (North American) and I can't see why she would use idioms nobody in Canada understands.
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| Fri Oct 19, 2007 14:22 pm errors in the tests |
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Hi Torsten
That is mysterious.
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| Fri Oct 19, 2007 15:38 pm errors in the tests |
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| Yankee wrote: | Hi Torsten
That is mysterious. |
Why mysterious? Don't tell me Canadians never use British expressions.
Another question, Amy: should phrases/expressions/sayings be banned or not included in tests because they aren't popular in the US (that's what your comments seem to imply)? |
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| Fri Oct 19, 2007 22:50 pm errors in the tests |
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Hi Conchita
| Quote: | | Another question, Amy: should phrases/expressions/sayings be banned or not included in tests because they aren't popular in the US (that's what your comments seem to imply)? |
No, that is neither what I said nor what was implied. It seems to me that as an English teacher you would agree that learning appropriate usage is an important element of learning a language. And some idiomatic expressions have extremely limited usage. I speak American English, and therefore I can offer information about American English. Do you suppose a Brit would know better than I do what is and is not used in American English?
I have long felt that slang language or language that is very limited in usage ought to be noted as such. I feel it is helpful for many learners to know and/or have access to such usage information. Usage, Conchita, usage!!! Why should usage information be hidden or somehow considered undesirable??? Why not let test-takers know when a particular idiom with extremely limited usage is being tested? To me, not doing so misrepresents the usage of the idiom/slang expression to the test-taker.
Respected British and American dictionaries regularly point out that a particular usage is "chiefly American" or "chiefly British". Don't you think there is a reason for this? Don't you think it is helpful for learners? Why in the world would you choose to criticize me for mentioning the very same thing? I mention these things because I strongly feel that knowing the restrictions of a particular usage is useful information for learners. Surely you don't believe that usage information is irrelevant when learning a language.
It is a fact that there are some differences between the various versions of English.
It is a fact that there are some idioms that simply are not idiomatic in all versions of English.
It is a fact that there are some expressions that have such limited usage that they won't be understood by a large number of native-speakers of English.
You may have noticed that my original comment was simply headed "FYI". That means "for your information". I can't single-handedly ensure that the British idiom in question here comes to be widely used and understood in American English. What I can do, however, is offer the information that it is not used.
Personally, I feel that suggesting that all idioms are universally used by all native speakers of English is a disservice to learners. I see no good reason whatsoever to attempt to hide or suppress usage information!
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| Sat Oct 20, 2007 0:59 am errors in the tests |
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I hadn't heard 'mutton dressed as lamb' (usually no article-- 'dressed', I think, is a culinary term here) either, and I lived 20 years in Canada (1967-87)-- it is evidently quite BrE. I like it, though-- nice image.
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| Sat Oct 20, 2007 2:25 am errors in the tests |
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Hi
Then as have a dichotomy of "standard/international" English versus adjustable English. Labeling is a good idea, but we have to take into consideration the many phrases that Brits or Aussies would know from America and visa versa.
How can we resolve this?
Lets take a phrase like "more bang for your buck" this is widely known in the UK or Business English, and then how do we balance it with " it turns up like a dirty penny".
I think all we can do is expose people to variations and specify a necessary area of restriction if they need it; i.e. working in USA or studying British Lit. Beyond this we will always get into arguments about what is good and best.
However I do agree that labeling is important and in the tests it happens often both ways. But is the label as important as the parsing?
cheers stew.t.
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| Sat Oct 20, 2007 4:22 am errors in the tests |
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Usage is something that ESL teachers talk about constantly -- be it grammar, vocabulary, idioms, register, or what have you.
There is nothing at all unusual about mentioning how, when, where, why or by whom specific language is used or not used. It happens all the time!
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| Sat Oct 20, 2007 4:45 am errors in the tests |
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| stew.t. wrote: | | How can we resolve this? |
One way to resolve a few of the kinks in the tests here has already been suggested: Peer review prior to publishing/posting each test. It would probably be most effective if the review were done by native speakers of various versions of English -- especially when idioms are tested. At least that way you'd get the usage input beforehand rather than after the fact.
| stew.t. wrote: | | But is the label as important as the parsing? |
According to the online dictionaries I checked, the "mutton dressed as lamb" idiom is quite derogatory. Is that true?
Not only did I not understand this idiom prior to looking it up, but I also didn't pick up on the extremely negative nature of the idiom from the test sentence itself. I mean, to someone who isn't familiar with the idiom, the meaning might just as well end up interpreted as being positive or complimentary -- e.g. she looks younger than she is. 
That was part of the reason I made a point of mentioning that the idiom is not used over here.
Can a test-taker guess the answer from the choices given? I hope so. But that doesn't change the fact that a large proportion of the English speaking world is not going to be familiar with the idiom.
Last but not least, there is now a question in my mind about whether the idiom is ever used with the article 'a', and whether the test needs some tweaking in that regard too. Is it "a mutton dressed as a lamb", "mutton dressed as lamb", or are both versions commonly used in Britain? If the BNC is any indication, the two indefinite articles are not used in the expression.
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