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#17 (permalink) Fri Aug 17, 2007 6:43 am Why are you learning English? |
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| Jamie (K) wrote: |
| edison_chen_e_c wrote: |
| I promise the products made from Taiwan are nice, not any toxic. |
I know. We don't normally have any problems with Taiwanese products. |
They're so mean that they keep us out of UN. |
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Edison_Chen_e_c I'm here quite often ;-)
Joined: 23 Jul 2007 Posts: 206
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#18 (permalink) Fri Aug 17, 2007 11:13 am Why are you learning English? |
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| edison_chen_e_c wrote: |
| Jamie (K) wrote: |
| edison_chen_e_c wrote: |
| I promise the products made from Taiwan are nice, not any toxic. |
I know. We don't normally have any problems with Taiwanese products. |
They're so mean that they keep us out of UN. |
They insist that Taiwan is part of their country and therefore doesn't deserve separate representation in the UN. Even in beauty pageants, Miss Taiwan is now called "Miss Chinese Taipei".
Anyway, it doesn't really matter that Taiwan isn't in the UN. The UN is relatively useless and extremely corrupt. They don't achieve much, and anything that really gets done in the world is done through independently formed alliances. |
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Jamie (K) I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 24 Feb 2006 Posts: 5334 Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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#19 (permalink) Fri Aug 17, 2007 14:10 pm Why are you learning English? |
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| Jamie (K) wrote: |
| Anyway, it doesn't really matter that Taiwan isn't in the UN. The UN is relatively useless and extremely corrupt. They don't achieve much, and anything that really gets done in the world is done through independently formed alliances. |
I would say that the UN still has a more humane guise than most governments. Would you say that the UN is more corrupt than most so called democratic governments? I'd doubt it. At least the UN does not go to war for oil, so-called "wars on terror" or to nip the communist threat in the bud.
I wonder what kind of independently formed alliances you are addressing. "Blair, Bush and the New Europe", anti-globalisation activists at G8 summits, peaceful think tanks from various countries, or parties pledging allegiance to some clearly descernable truth? _________________ Test of English as a Foreign Language TOEFL Preparation & TOEFL Vocabulary Learn more: How to Become an English Teacher |
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Ralf Language Coach

Joined: 20 Apr 2006 Posts: 1485 Location: EU (Ireland and Germany)
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#20 (permalink) Fri Aug 17, 2007 14:31 pm Why are you learning English? |
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| Ralf wrote: |
| I would say that the UN still has a more humane guise than most governments. |
Come on! Their human rights council includes countries whose citizens have limited or no human rights: China, Saudi Arabia, Cuba, among others. They pass resolutions against countries that give full human rights to their citizens, sponsored by other countries that are human rights abusers.
| Ralf wrote: |
| Would you say that the UN is more corrupt than most so called democratic governments? |
Absolutely. The corruption is aggravated by the fact that the UN has no electorate to answer to, and because they have no mechanism for outside audits. They say they'll investigate themselves, and then they don't do anything.
| Ralf wrote: |
| I'd doubt it. At least the UN does not go to war for oil, so-called "wars on terror" or to nip the communist threat in the bud. |
UN officials had a financial interest in propping up a genocidal dictator because he was providing them with millions of dollars in oil vouchers and financial kickbacks to preferred contractors in the Oil for Food program. They don't make "war for oil" (which the US doesn't either), but they support oppression and genocide for their personal financial gain.
As for "nipping the communist threat in the bud", historical events have shown there's nothing wrong with that. Anyone who thinks communism offered a better alternative is deluded.
| Ralf wrote: |
| I wonder what kind of independently formed alliances you are addressing. "Blair, Bush and the New Europe", anti-globalisation activists at G8 summits, peaceful think tanks from various countries, or parties pledging allegiance to some clearly descernable truth? |
Oh, now you're getting into all that Michael Moore psychotic conspiracy theory garbage. It's not worth discussing with you. |
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Jamie (K) I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 24 Feb 2006 Posts: 5334 Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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Ralf Language Coach

Joined: 20 Apr 2006 Posts: 1485 Location: EU (Ireland and Germany)
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#22 (permalink) Fri Aug 17, 2007 14:40 pm Why are you learning English? |
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| Ralf wrote: |
| At least the UN does not go to war for oil, |
Your wording suggests that this would never be justifiable and would always be "wrong". Is that what you believe, Ralf? In my opinion, your statement is naively simplistic and only suggests to me that you've joined "Let's bash America for the sake of bashing America" bandwagon.
| Ralf wrote: |
| ...so-called "wars on terror"... |
Why do you use the word "so-called"? Again, this sounds like a case of America bashing to me.
| Ralf wrote: |
| ... or to nip the communist threat in the bud. |
Would you prefer to allow threats to develop fully before addressing them?
Edit: Don't get me wrong -- the US Government is certainly not perfect, I voted for someone other than Bush in the last two elections, and I'm the last person you'll ever convince that the War in Iraq was begun simply to "free" the Iraqis. But I've also heard very loud criticism of the US from people who think we should have gotten involved in some foreign conflict when we didn't. Or who think we didn't donate enough money. Or didn't take action on whatever. Living in Europe has led me to the conclusion that nowadays, in the eyes of much of the rest of the world, the US is damned if it does and damned if it doesn't. . |
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Yankee I'm a Communicator ;-)

Joined: 16 Apr 2006 Posts: 8265 Location: USA
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#23 (permalink) Fri Aug 17, 2007 17:23 pm Why are you learning English? |
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Speaking of human rights, I'd say that I have a pseudo-right to cast my vote because I dont have much to choose between. Those scumbags who after elections will keep on stripping my country of its wealth are no good. I have missed out on all the elections for several years because of that. I'd say I'm sick of the bullcrap they been spitting for so much time. The promises made will never be even 10% fulfilled... Well I can go on and on and on complaining about it but I know better than that.
The point I was trying to make is that though I have the rights of free speech, of voting, it does not make my life any better |
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Lost_Soul I'm a Communicator ;-)

Joined: 15 Sep 2006 Posts: 1861 Location: South Park, Colorado, USA
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#24 (permalink) Fri Aug 17, 2007 17:32 pm Why are you learning English? |
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Hi LS,
Do you believe that every country has the government it deserves? _________________ Test Of English for International Communication TOEIC Preparation & TOEIC Vocabulary |
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Torsten Learning Coach

Joined: 25 Sep 2003 Posts: 10059 Location: EU
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#25 (permalink) Fri Aug 17, 2007 17:34 pm Why are you learning English? |
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| Torsten wrote: |
Hi LS,
Do you believe that every country has the government it deserves? |
Hi, Torsten
I 100% agree with you. I'd say that around 70% people of my country deserved this damn goverment. And the rest thrives on this goverment. |
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Lost_Soul I'm a Communicator ;-)

Joined: 15 Sep 2006 Posts: 1861 Location: South Park, Colorado, USA
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#26 (permalink) Fri Aug 17, 2007 17:51 pm Why are you learning English? |
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Hi LS,
I think in any country it's just a small minority who make decisions for the majority simply because the majority of all people in all countries are not interested in politics. The majority of people will always complain about the government without actually doing something to replace that government. It is always easier to complain and say what you don't want. Complaining is always easier than doing something. That's why so many people complain. I don't think that there is any country in the world where the majority of its people are happy with their government.
Yet, most people will never try to govern themselves. Let the other guys do the job so we are not responsible if something goes wrong. And there is always something that goes wrong. So who wants to be a politician? Not the average person because they'd rather complain and they know exactly that nobody likes politicians. If I'm not a politician life is pretty easy because I can suffer and blame the government for my misery. If I'm a politician I don't have this option because everyone is blaming me for their miserable lives.
So the question is, do we need a government and politicians? Obviously we do because we have not been able to get rid of them. If we need a government and politicians then why is that we don't seem to be able to find the right people for the job? I don't think that those who complain about their government are any better than the government itself. As a matter of fact, the people who complain about their government saying that they can't do anything but complain are worse than the government. The government doesn't complain about its people. The government makes those decisions the people are not willing or able to make. If the people were willing and able to make their own decisions they wouldn't need a government and they wouldn't have anything to complain about. _________________ Test Of English for International Communication TOEIC Preparation & TOEIC Vocabulary |
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Torsten Learning Coach

Joined: 25 Sep 2003 Posts: 10059 Location: EU
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#27 (permalink) Fri Aug 17, 2007 21:35 pm Why are you learning English? |
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| Yankee wrote: |
| America bashing |
A notion I get from your comments as well as from Jamie's comments is this: Stating an opinion which does not go confirm with the American Heritage Foundation automatically results in "bashing" American politics. And I find this pretty significant. _________________ Test of English as a Foreign Language TOEFL Preparation & TOEFL Vocabulary Learn more: How to Become an English Teacher |
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Ralf Language Coach

Joined: 20 Apr 2006 Posts: 1485 Location: EU (Ireland and Germany)
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#28 (permalink) Fri Aug 17, 2007 22:16 pm Why are you learning English? |
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Hi Ralf
It is also significant that both Jamie and I have lived outside the US.
It sure would be interesting to see some Brits (for example) carry on in post after post after post in this forum about how awful the British government is for a change.
I'm certain it's been clear to Jamie (and plenty of others) for quite some time that I often do not agree with him. Our politics are quite different. So I have no idea what you're trying to say when you talk about "the American Heritage Foundation".
Why not answer my questions? I have told you how I interpreted what you wrote and also that, for example, I find the "war for oil" criticism naive and simplistic. It doesn't really matter to me whether you make that statement or someone else does. No matter who might say it, I will find it to be an un-thought-out, naive phrase -- particularly if that's all that's said. To me, flinging that phrase around simply sounds like someone joining a chorus without thinking more deeply about what they're singing. . |
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Yankee I'm a Communicator ;-)

Joined: 16 Apr 2006 Posts: 8265 Location: USA
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#29 (permalink) Fri Aug 17, 2007 23:23 pm Why are you learning English? |
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| Amy, it's a feature of European (and American) anti-Americanism that it relies on slogans more than thought or truth. The gaps between the slogans are filled with assumptions based on various sorts of prejudices and stereotypes of Americans, some of them dating back more than 150 years. Some of the stereotypes are simply projections of the person's own mentality onto some imaginary American they've conjured in their minds. Because people like this use slogans in place of thought, they usually point to other people's shorthand phrases as evidence of a lack of thought, even if the other person really is thinking more than they are. Also, because these people use slogans instead of thought or information, they can't answer pointed or complex questions like the ones you've posed. Their thinking doesn't go much deeper, and doesn't get more empirical than sloganeering. |
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Jamie (K) I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 24 Feb 2006 Posts: 5334 Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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#30 (permalink) Sat Aug 18, 2007 6:46 am Why are you learning English? |
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| Torsten wrote: |
| I think in any country it's just a small minority who make decisions for the majority simply because the majority of all people in all countries are not interested in politics. The majority of people will always complain about the government without actually doing something to replace that government. It is always easier to complain and say what you don't want. Complaining is always easier than doing something. That's why so many people complain. I don't think that there is any country in the world where the majority of its people are happy with their government. |
I'm totally with Mr. Torsten on this point. My country gets the same problem, every day I come back home from school turning on the TV, it's a war between the majority of the citizens and the government. Parties and parties. It's much more terrible than a real war that China attack us all of a sudden someday. I'm afraid I have to do a migration before China's forced entry because of our own fighting inside. It's so pathetic. - Jamie talked about the corruption of the UN. Though I don't really understand what you all grownups are quarrelling about yet I l know we Taiwanese can't attend any international occasions just like the coming Olympic athletic sporting meeting if we are not a member of the UN, however lousy it is. There are still plenty of problem we will meet with but what we can do is just dollar diplomacy like what the ex-president did in 1960s. Thanks to the USA protected us to enter the WTO successfully, that's a hope we can see in the dark after 1971 when we were kicked out of the UN. - I'm sorry if I make any offence but I'm curious about why the USA does the war in Iraq. What I learned is that the USA does is because of its own gain, if there are other reasons to do that, it should be another way rather than a war. - Should I love the USA? |
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Edison_Chen_e_c I'm here quite often ;-)
Joined: 23 Jul 2007 Posts: 206
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