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 #32 (permalink) Sat Aug 18, 2007 12:53 pm Why are you learning English? |
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| edison_chen_e_c wrote: |
| I'm sorry if I make any offence but I'm curious about why the USA does the war in Iraq. What I learned is that the USA does is because of its own gain, if there are other reasons to do that, it should be another way rather than a war. |
The reasons the US public was given at the beginning were different from what was being discussed at the UN for six months. Before the US government discussed the matter in the UN, the main reasons given were that Saddam Hussein was giving safe haven to terrorist cells, which was true, and that he had terrorist training facilities there, which was true. They also said that he had vowed the destruction of Israel (the only democracy in the Middle East, and a US ally), and of the United States. Both of these claims were also true. For several years prior to the invasion, the US and British militaries had had to enforce a "no fly" zone over northern and southern Iraq, because Saddam Hussein's forces had used chemical weapons to try to exterminate the entire Kurdish population in the north, and the Shiite population in the south. These "no fly" zones had been established with UN approval, and the Iraqi army under Saddam frequently shot at the American and British planes patrolling the zones.
Some anti-American types claim the war was based on the "lie" that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction (WMDs). The US government actually didn't stress that claim until they went to the UN. You see, most of the members of the UN don't care if the US and Israel are destroyed, and many of the members actually WANT them to be destroyed. So if you're going to make a case for opposing Saddam Hussein, you can't base it on danger to the US and Israel, but on something that people in the UN care about. In this case, they stressed the fact that Iraq had violated 17 or more UN resolutions that were meant to prevent Hussein's government from threatening other countries and committing genocide within his own country. They also brought up the belief that he had been developing WMDs. This was not only a belief of the US government, but also of the British and Russian intelligence services. It's still not clear whether Iraq had them or not. The six months the US spent pleading the case to the UN was plenty of time to hide things. (After the US went in, they were led to 23 Russian fighter planes hidden in the desert, and if you can hide MiG's, you can certainly hide missiles.) The UN sent a weapons inspection team under Hans Blix to search the country, but it was just a small group of people trying to search a place the size of California, so they could only examine a tiny fraction of the possibilities. Also, since some time in the 1990s, there had been agents for the Iraqi government on the UN weapons inspection teams, so when the UN team conducted a "surprise inspection", it wasn't a surprise. The belief among various national intelligence services is that the Iraqi government had switched to mobile development labs that could be moved a day or two before an inspection. Certain Iraqi citizens have led coalition forces to what they claim were parts of the development project, claiming that no one (living) person knew where all the parts were buried, but it's still unclear how those parts fit into the whole. What is clear is that the whole WMD story wasn't simply a "lie made up by George Bush".
The war was not for oil. The US doesn't even get most of its oil from the Middle East (only about 13%, depending on the year), and the idea was that the revenue from putting the oil on world markets would be used to help with the reconstruction of Iraq. As in many Middle Eastern countries with rich natural resources, in Iraq almost all of the money went into the coffers of the dictator and his family, so that the revenue wasn't benefitting the economy or the people as a whole. The idea was that this money could be poured into the Iraqi economy to benefit the average person.
However, many people who wanted to keep Saddam Hussein in place (and remember he was a dictator on the order of Hitler and Stalin) favored him because he gave them oil deals. French oil companies had something like $20 billion in oil contracts with his government. These contracts were illegal under the UN sanctions, but they made them anyway. Iraqi government documents also show that Saddam Hussein was paying off various specific people in foreign governments, and in the UN, with oil vouchers worth millions of dollars on the open market. Most of these people were very loud in support of leaving Saddam's government in place, so they were as motivated by oil profits as they claim George Bush was.
It's important to note who is killing the civilians in Iraq now. It's not US or coalition soldiers, but the opposition, which consists mainly of foreigners.
Wars are ugly, tragic and complicated, and their reasons are complicated. If anyone tells you that a war happened "for oil" or "to fill the pockets of the weapons industry" or for some other simple reason, they're almost always trying to hide complicated facts behind a simple slogan or two, and are presenting a comic book version of events.
| edison_chen_e_c wrote: |
| Should I love the USA? |
You're free to love, like or dislike anyone you want to. |
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Jamie (K)
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 5334
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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| #33 (permalink) Sat Aug 18, 2007 14:13 pm Why are you learning English? |
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| Jamie (K) wrote: |
| Amy, it's a feature of European (and American) anti-Americanism that it relies on slogans more than thought or truth. |
Jamie,
Why is it that the European and American anti-Americanism relies on slogans more than on truth? Also, how do you define "Americanism" and what is "anti-Americanism"?
To me, one of the features of "Americanism" is using a balanced combination of thought and emotion. The Americans have a tendency to see focus on the positive aspects of any given situation instead of the negative ones. That's why they are dominating the world in so many fields. The Americans have a very practical approach saying "If you contribute to the good of our nation, we don't care about your cultural background or religion, just join us and work with us instead of against us".
I also think that the Americans like to take the initiative where other nations prefer to argue over a lot issues trying to prove who is right and who is wrong. To me, Americanism means to get things done. Are the Americans better than other people? No. Do they have a tendency to look for solutions where others are whining and complaining? Definitely. I think that "Americanism" is the combination of a great variety of different approaches to all kinds of problems. Americanism draws upon experience and knowledge from all over the world not just from America.
As for Iraq, a lot has gone wrong there and I think nobody is denying it. However, instead of complaining we should come up solutions because the situation in Iraq affects all of us. Yes, we could discuss the reasons for the invasion but no matter what explanations we come up with, the fact remains that the situation is dire and nobody has a viable solution. The Americans are there and the rest of world is criticizing them without offering any real alternatives.
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| #34 (permalink) Sun Aug 19, 2007 8:06 am Why are you learning English? |
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Ohh, to me, your talking is so difficult and deep to the event. It's just like a history lesson and I get to grab my books to follow what the hell you are talking about though I like history very much. I found it extraordinary that it's rather different from the westerns and the easterns who are discussing something. Your way of thinking is quite different to us. However the difference is beyond my description with my current English degree.
Jamie, your post makes me much more clear about the condition though in there there are many vocabularies I don't understand. I know there are two sides in the USA and you are supposed to be the side of standing for Bush. And actually I love the USA no matter I should or not.
Some say that the whole world is going all of the diversification because of the globalization, but you will discover that as a matter of fact it's coming consolidated and Americanized one. We little by little accept the whole American things instead of our own customs, we wear jeans, have Mc Donald food, watch Hollywood movies rather than Frech or Germany films. The superman who saves the world is the USA all the time being. The USA is The World. American National Basketball Association as a example.
The USA after WWARII is mysterious and amazing. |
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Edison_Chen_e_c
I'm here quite often ;-)
Joined: 23 Jul 2007
Posts: 206
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| #35 (permalink) Sun Aug 19, 2007 11:34 am Why are you learning English? |
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| edison_chen_e_c wrote: |
| Some say that the whole world is going all of the diversification because of the globalization, but you will discover that as a matter of fact it's coming consolidated and Americanized one. We little by little accept the whole American things instead of our own customs, we wear jeans, have Mc Donald food, watch Hollywood movies rather than Frech or Germany films. The superman who saves the world is the USA all the time being. The USA is The World. American National Basketball Association as a example. |
People who say this obviously don't know how the US has changed.
In 1945, there were almost no Buddhists in the US, and almost none of them were of European origin. Now it's not unusual to meet a Buddhist with no family connection to Asia.
Many Americans drink European, Japanese or even Chinese beer in preference to American beer. (I drink beer, but I very seldom drink typical American beer.)
In the US, sushi has gone from being a very exotic dish to one you can buy in every neighborhood.
American kids, especially girls, read a lot of Japanese comic books. A typical American bookstore has a whole large section devoted to manga. Yesterday I was in a department store, and they were selling a software program for kids to compose their own Japanese-style animated cartoons.
Certain kinds of French cheeses have moved from the specialty stores to the ordinary dairy section of the supermarket.
Thai restaurants are in every neighborhood.
Half the companies in my part of the city, where my friends and I got our first jobs after high school, are now German owned.
The American car companies have adopted quality and manufacturing systems from the Japanese. However, these systems did not originate in Japan. They're American, but the Japanese adopted them before the Americans did.
My local bank is now owned by the Royal Bank of Scotland, and I can now deposit a check in euros the same as if it were in dollars. That used to be impossible before. Another large bank near me is owned by a Dutch company.
The steel factory near me is now owned by a Russian company.
My cable TV company has channels in Spanish and Arabic, besides English.
My state has changed the requirements for graduating from high school, so that now every kid MUST know a foreign language in order to get his diploma. This would sound normal to people in other countries, but until now, people in most states didn't have to learn another language.
Don't ever say that globalization is simply the imposition of American culture on the rest of the world. |
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Jamie (K)
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 5334
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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| #36 (permalink) Sun Aug 19, 2007 15:56 pm Why are you learning English? |
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| Yankee wrote: |
Why not answer my questions? I have told you how I interpreted what you wrote and also that, for example, I find the "war for oil" criticism naive and simplistic. It doesn't really matter to me whether you make that statement or someone else does. No matter who might say it, I will find it to be an un-thought-out, naive phrase -- particularly if that's all that's said. To me, flinging that phrase around simply sounds like someone joining a chorus without thinking more deeply about what they're singing.
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Hi Amy,
My apologies for this slightly belated reply. In my response to Jamie's comment about the UN I merely tried to hint to a point of view different from his. And while I hear notghing but biased presentations from his corner followed by accusations of anti-Americanism and sloganeering, I find myself in a position where I'm accused of less reasoned argumentation. Therefore, my position seems less intellectually sophistcated and much more superficial than others'. This is why Jamie is right, no use talking to me.
I know that you don't use polemics in order to make a point. But I'd like to state that I was not cheering the chorus of the Michael Moore bandwagon, because he is using the same kind of polemics other people on this forum and in politics use to support their opinion. And to me that's not really the right way of pursuing a cause, regardless whether I approve of it or not.
To come back to your question: Yes, I do not necessarily think that it is wrong to go to war for oil, but I think it is wrong to have the CIA design/find faulse evidence in order to justify the action. And I also think it wrong to rush into a war and risk the life of thousands of soldiers that could have been saved had the whole affair been thought through properly.
Anyway, I'd like to think that my time abroad (in America and other places) and personal contact with Americans have helped me to look beyond something that may be rightly called European ignorance. As far as culture goes, I do believe that the American culture as well as the American state of mind (please excuse this simplification) savours it's own right. Yet, it is quite true that there are many Europeans who think that America merely has an axe to grind, though.
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| #37 (permalink) Mon Aug 20, 2007 14:25 pm Why are you learning English? |
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| Jamie (K) wrote: |
| edison_chen_e_c wrote: |
| Some say that the whole world is going all of the diversification because of the globalization, but you will discover that as a matter of fact it's coming consolidated and Americanized one. We little by little accept the whole American things instead of our own customs, we wear jeans, have Mc Donald food, watch Hollywood movies rather than Frech or Germany films. The superman who saves the world is the USA all the time being. The USA is The World. American National Basketball Association as a example. |
People who say this obviously don't know how the US has changed.
In 1945, there were almost no Buddhists in the US, and almost none of them were of European origin. Now it's not unusual to meet a Buddhist with no family connection to Asia.
Many Americans drink European, Japanese or even Chinese beer in preference to American beer. (I drink beer, but I very seldom drink typical American beer.)
In the US, sushi has gone from being a very exotic dish to one you can buy in every neighborhood.
American kids, especially girls, read a lot of Japanese comic books. A typical American bookstore has a whole large section devoted to manga. Yesterday I was in a department store, and they were selling a software program for kids to compose their own Japanese-style animated cartoons.
Certain kinds of French cheeses have moved from the specialty stores to the ordinary dairy section of the supermarket.
Thai restaurants are in every neighborhood.
Half the companies in my part of the city, where my friends and I got our first jobs after high school, are now German owned.
The American car companies have adopted quality and manufacturing systems from the Japanese. However, these systems did not originate in Japan. They're American, but the Japanese adopted them before the Americans did.
My local bank is now owned by the Royal Bank of Scotland, and I can now deposit a check in euros the same as if it were in dollars. That used to be impossible before. Another large bank near me is owned by a Dutch company.
The steel factory near me is now owned by a Russian company.
My cable TV company has channels in Spanish and Arabic, besides English.
My state has changed the requirements for graduating from high school, so that now every kid MUST know a foreign language in order to get his diploma. This would sound normal to people in other countries, but until now, people in most states didn't have to learn another language.
Don't ever say that globalization is simply the imposition of American culture on the rest of the world. |
Really, I haven't been to the USA, and the change in every nation seems to be so fast that I can't follow it if I haven't been to that country. (I know it's an excuse, but watching the news in English on TV like CNN or BBC is really difficult for me, they speak too fast for me to follow.) It seems that the USA is really a big family, which makes me want to explore it as soon as possible. Can Taiwanese do migrations to the USA? If my memory is clear I think China has been instead of us in America, they can emigrate to the USA, but we can't. |
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Edison_Chen_e_c
I'm here quite often ;-)
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Posts: 206
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| #38 (permalink) Thu Aug 23, 2007 10:27 am Why are you learning English? |
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Hi Edison,
If you feel that the people on CNN or BBC speak too fast you have to listen more instead of less. Have the TV play in the background and don't concentrate on every word. Understanding spoken English is essential if you want to find out more about life in the US. I think anyone can emigrate to the US as long as they contribute to the country's growth. For example, if you want to found a company in the US and employ Americans, I'm sure you'll have good chances to emigrate there. I'm not quite sure what you mean by saying that China has been in America instead of you. Could you please elaborate? Are you saying that nobody from Taiwan has ever emigrated to the US? Do all people from mainland China emigrate to the US? What would they do there?
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| #39 (permalink) Thu Aug 23, 2007 13:14 pm Why are you learning English? |
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I learned it from the news, it seems that the USA issues qualifications (limited maximum quantity of migration) to every country, and ours are instead of China. I don't know its meaning, I don't know in that case we can move to the USA or not, though Taiwanese have emigrated to the USA years ago. (I'm not talking about 'travelling in the USA', I'm talking about the 'migration'.)
By the way, is it natural that I say : "issue qualifications" ? |
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Edison_Chen_e_c
I'm here quite often ;-)
Joined: 23 Jul 2007
Posts: 206
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| #40 (permalink) Thu Aug 23, 2007 13:30 pm Why are you learning English? |
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| edison_chen_e_c wrote: |
I learned it from the news, it seems that the USA issues qualifications (limited maximum quantity of migration) to every country, and ours are instead of China. I don't know its meaning, I don't know in that case we can move to the USA or not, though Taiwanese have emigrated to the USA years ago. (I'm not talking about 'travelling in the USA', I'm talking about the 'migration'.)
By the way, is it natural that I say : "issue qualifications" ? |
So.....may I guess you mean your "emigrated legal rights" are exproporiated by mainland of China cause they are hard for emigrating to the U.S? |
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Princess
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| #41 (permalink) Thu Aug 23, 2007 13:50 pm Why are you learning English? |
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| edison_chen_e_c wrote: |
| By the way, is it natural that I say : "issue qualifications" ? |
Maybe "issue requirements" is better.
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| #42 (permalink) Thu Aug 23, 2007 13:56 pm Why are you learning English? |
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I think the main questions are "Why does somebody want to emigrate to the US?" and "Why would the US allow that person to immigrate?" Edison, let's start with you, why do you want to leave your country for good and why should the US allow you to live there? Also, why do you want to emigrate to the US and not to another country like China or Singapore?
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| #43 (permalink) Thu Aug 23, 2007 14:01 pm Why are you learning English? |
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| Torsten wrote: |
| I think the main questions are "Why does somebody want to emigrate to the US?" and "Why would the US allow that person to immigrate?" Edison, let's start with you, why do you want to leave your country for good and why should the US allow you to live there? Also, why do you want to emigrate to the US and not to another country like China or Singapore? |
 Ya, Ed, think about them and maybe that is the reason why you feel such tough for emigrating but others are not suffering under that. |
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Princess
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| #44 (permalink) Sat Aug 25, 2007 8:33 am Why are you learning English? |
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well, I have 'American Dreams' also! all right, maybe because the USA can afford me a better life (or job) if I'm the head of some big firm. At school, we are also informed that we now need to study hard and get money to develop ourselves in the USA, and staying in the small island you will live a hard life.
I don't want to go to China, but Singapore is fine.
As a normal kid, I wanna explore the big world, the USA, as kinda adventure or something as well. |
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Edison_Chen_e_c
I'm here quite often ;-)
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| #45 (permalink) Sat Aug 25, 2007 8:35 am Why are you learning English? |
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| Maybe someday I would find out the USA is not the paradise I've expected, but where I was born.... |
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Edison_Chen_e_c
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