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 #17 (permalink) Wed Aug 08, 2007 8:45 am Generalisations and Stereotypes: How culturally adept are you? |
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| prezbucky wrote: |
I have never been to Greece, but I show enough respect, at least, to pronounce gyro "year-oh", which I think is roughly how it would be pronounced in Greece.
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| prezbucky wrote: |
| I try to pronounce things they way they're pronounced in their native language, and sometimes get irritated when others do not. (minor pet peeve) |
It is interesting to read that you see the correct pronunciation of a word as a sign of respect for a culture. I think so too. In Germany people are terribly fond of English words, and it is at times confusing to hear 3 different phonological versions of a word from different speakers. Maybe you could take it as a sign of respect, more rather as a sign of a mysterious affinity with the English language. In Britain and Ireland people are less careful with foreign words. Just ask yourself how you would pronounce words originating from French in a very Anglophile way, and you have the answer.
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 Ralf
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| #18 (permalink) Wed Aug 08, 2007 8:53 am Generalisations and Stereotypes: How culturally adept are you? |
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| Jamie (K) wrote: |
| Ralf wrote: |
| Jamie (K) wrote: |
| I can't explain the reason for the phenomenon I'm talking about. I simply find that here and elsewhere, when an American makes a cultural generalization, he has to make a big show of acknowledging the possibility of exceptions, or else some European will accuse him of peddling stereotypes. |
Why make a big show? I can see the cultural difference there, but the big show is not appreciated everywhere. |
The American has to make a big show of acknowledging the possibility of exceptions because it's not enough merely to hedge his statements normally. He must loudly and explicitly proclaim the existence of exceptions, because if he doesn't, the European will accuse him of stereotyping.
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So maybe this circumstance could be called the American tightrope. If I understand you correctly, an American can't help but voicing their opinion in a loud and explicit way in order to get heard. And if he does so by making a big show, he is likely to be accused of Hollywood behaviour and self-righteousness.
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| #19 (permalink) Wed Aug 08, 2007 12:06 pm Generalisations and Stereotypes: How culturally adept are you? |
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Hi Ralf
I think you have misunderstood Jamie. But, I'll wait for Jamie to confirm that rather than try to speak for him.
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| #20 (permalink) Wed Aug 08, 2007 12:26 pm Generalisations and Stereotypes: How culturally adept are you? |
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| Yankee wrote: |
Hi Ralf
I think you have misunderstood Jamie. But, I'll wait for Jamie to confirm that rather than try to speak for him.
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Well, I think he was implying that the "big show" meant as much as having to state generalisations in an elaborate and politically correct way, whereas Europeans do not need to take such measures in order to clarify their cultural adeptness.
Since this whole discussion has somewhat inevitably drifted off to debating American specifics, I must admit I was deliberately pushing it into the Hollywood corner to tackle yet another American stereotype/generalisation.
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| #21 (permalink) Wed Aug 08, 2007 13:49 pm Generalisations and Stereotypes: How culturally adept are you? |
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Ralf, yeah
I think that the attempt to pronounce foreign words correctly is a sign of respect for the homeland(s) of those foreign words -- and if one succeeds, or almost succeeds, at getting the words right... that's icing on the cake.
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| #22 (permalink) Sun Aug 12, 2007 12:46 pm Generalisations and Stereotypes: How culturally adept are you? |
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I've noticed that in this thread (as well as in most other threads on this forum) most discussions show a tendency to become very acrid and personal before they drift apart. Whether or not this may be due to conventional personality conflicts, it is intriguing to see that the waves usually seem to bluster from one side of the Atlantic to the other.
When discussing idiosyncrasies of the English languages, cultural diversities and means to help other people acquire a language, one might think that a mutual language should provide for a common ground.
I must confess that my personal group of friends here in Leipzig/Germany mainly consists of people from Britain and Ireland. There are a few Germans and Americans I associate with, but most of my time is spent with 'island monkeys', as people call the Brits and Irish here.
Still, language should help to communicate. And if prezbucky says
| prezbucky wrote: |
| I think that the attempt to pronounce foreign words correctly is a sign of respect for the homeland(s) of those foreign words -- and if one succeeds, or almost succeeds, at getting the words right... that's icing on the cake. |
is it not curious to see that a common language doesn't help intercultural communication? Or would you more rather say that people generally find it hard to accept a variety of accent/language different from their own?
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| #23 (permalink) Sun Aug 12, 2007 14:13 pm Generalisations and Stereotypes: How culturally adept are you? |
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Hi Ralf,
Thank you for your succinct comments. It would certainly be a shame if you were to be put off by the 'acrid' (as you describe it) atmosphere that persists at the moment on some of the forums. Please continue with your posts.
Alan
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| #24 (permalink) Mon Aug 13, 2007 18:31 pm Generalisations and Stereotypes: How culturally adept are you? |
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Amen to that. Ralf is polite, lively in his ideas, and well-spoken.
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| #25 (permalink) Mon Aug 13, 2007 20:09 pm Generalisations and Stereotypes: How culturally adept are you? |
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| Ralf wrote: |
| Yankee wrote: |
Hi Ralf
I think you have misunderstood Jamie. But, I'll wait for Jamie to confirm that rather than try to speak for him.
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Well, I think he was implying that the "big show" meant as much as having to state generalisations in an elaborate and politically correct way, whereas Europeans do not need to take such measures in order to clarify their cultural adeptness.
Since this whole discussion has somewhat inevitably drifted off to debating American specifics, I must admit I was deliberately pushing it into the Hollywood corner to tackle yet another American stereotype/generalisation. |
Hi Ralf
Since Jamie has not posted here in almost a week, I'll tell you how I understood him. I did not understand Jamie's use of "big show" to mean that Americans "can't help but voicing their opinion in a loud and explicit way" (as you so very stereotypically put it). I understood that Jamie meant that Americans frequently find it necessary to elaborate far more than would be the case if someone else (i.e. from a different country) said exactly the same thing.
I experienced plenty of cultural stereotyping in Europe, so I really don't think that Europeans are any more "culturally adept" than anybody else.
As far as cultural differences go, there are also differences from area to area right here in the US. I remember having a very interesting discussion with a guy I met who lives in Alabama. There are some aspects of the culture down there that are pretty "foreign" to me. (I'm from the Northeast, and Alabama is in the deep South.)
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| #26 (permalink) Mon Aug 13, 2007 22:07 pm Generalisations and Stereotypes: How culturally adept are you? |
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| Yankee wrote: |
Hi Ralf
Since Jamie has not posted here in almost a week, I'll tell you how I understood him. I did not understand Jamie's use of "big show" to mean that Americans "can't help but voicing their opinion in a loud and explicit way" (as you so very stereotypically put it). I understood that Jamie meant that Americans frequently find it necessary to elaborate far more than would be the case if someone else (i.e. from a different country) said exactly the same thing.
I experienced plenty of cultural stereotyping in Europe, so I really don't think that Europeans are any more "culturally adept" than anybody else.
As far as cultural differences go, there are also differences from area to area right here in the US. I remember having a very interesting discussion with a guy I met who lives in Alabama. There are some aspects of the culture down there that are pretty "foreign" to me. (I'm from the Northeast, and Alabama is in the deep South.)
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Hi Amy,
You're definitely right in what you said. However, I feel that my quote "can't help but voicing their opinion..." is somewhat taken out of context. I verified this comment in my next entry by saying "I think he was implying that the "big show" meant as much as having to state generalisations in an elaborate and politically correct way, whereas Europeans do not need to take such measures in order to clarify their cultural adeptness."
I'm not here to cement stereotypes, merely to discuss partiality. The discussions on this forum show that there is always facility for converting an utterance one way or the other. If I wasn't simply trying to make sense of all those preoccupations (to avoid the terms generalisations and stereotypes) which seem to be pretty much a global endemic, I think I would be wasting my time.
Please do not consider this a declaration of yet another turf war. At the end of the day one would imagine that a mutual language ought to/could have enough potential to deliver a bland climate for communication...
And I'm interested, what cultural aspects did you experience as "pretty foreign" in Alabama? I think I have seen most American states, but being a foreigner abroad for a rather short time only provides you with display detail due to insufficient time to experience indigenous qualities.
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| #27 (permalink) Tue Aug 14, 2007 6:11 am Generalisations and Stereotypes: How culturally adept are you? |
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Hi Ralf
I interviewed the guy from Alabama (who I mentioned above) because I was conducting courses and seminars for Germans who were being sent there on two-year job assignments. I'd heard generalizations made about life down there, but wanted to get some perspective from the horse's mouth. Besides the fact that an Alabama accent is very different from mine, I guess three things stood out as especially different:
1. Church and the role it plays in everyday life.
2. Gun ownership
3. Home-schooling
Church attendance in the northeastern US is comparable to what I witnessed in Swabia: Some people go to church every Sunday, even more go to church only sporadically, and many hardly ever go. When I asked the guy from Alabama whether he went to church every Sunday, his answer was "At least". It seems that the church is much more a part of people's everyday lives in the South than it is in the Northeast.
When I went to Germany, I discovered that Germans thought that all Americans had guns. Now, I've never owned a gun and my family and friends are not gun-owners either. So, I was a little puzzled by this stereotype. When I asked this fellow from Alabama whether he had a gun, he told me that he not only had 'a' gun, but he also had nine more. His estimation was that most of the people he knows are also gun-owners. Our gun conversation was pretty interesting.
It also seems that far more parents home-school their kids in the South.
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| #28 (permalink) Tue Aug 14, 2007 10:09 am Generalisations and Stereotypes: How culturally adept are you? |
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| Yankee wrote: |
| Church attendance in the northeastern US is comparable to what I witnessed in Swabia: Some people go to church every Sunday, even more go to church only sporadically, and many hardly ever go. When I asked the guy from Alabama whether he went to church every Sunday, his answer was "At least". It seems that the church is much more a part of people's everyday lives in the South than it is in the Northeast. |
Ireland is similar in this respect. Growing up there, you find it hard to escape the church or religion. I think I lost my religious appeal during my studies because I was away from home for the first time ever. But my mother would still call me to ask whether I had attended mass. And, without further ado, I'd tell her that I did so after coming home from the Sunday match I had watched in a pub.
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| #29 (permalink) Mon Oct 08, 2007 20:50 pm Generalisations and Stereotypes: How culturally adept are you? |
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| prezbucky wrote: |
| I try to pronounce things they way they're pronounced in their native language |
There's a good boy!
| prezbucky wrote: |
| Same with Spanish -- many in Nashville pronounce Buena Vista (it's a road here) as "BYOO-na VIHSta" instead of "BWAYnah VEEStah" |
Actually, in Spanish it should be pronounced:
- 'bwe' (vowel sound as in 'sweat')
- 'na' (no equivalent vowel sound in English, but similar to the one in 'cut' and slightly longer)*
- 'bis' (no equivalent vowel sound in English, but similar to the one in 'fish' and slightly longer)**
- 'ta' (no equivalent consonant sound in English -- the Spanish 't' is softer than in English) + (*)
**The Spanish 'v' sounds like a 'b'.
Your version of 'Buena Vista', however, is quite good (and probably much simpler, too!). |
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| #30 (permalink) Tue Oct 09, 2007 23:45 pm Generalisations and Stereotypes: How culturally adept are you? |
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| Ralf wrote: |
| is it not curious to see that a common language doesn't help intercultural communication? Or would you more rather say that people generally find it hard to accept a variety of accent/language different from their own? |
I think it's one or more of the following:
1) The person doesn't care
2) The person isn't educated regarding the correct pronunciation
3) The person is physically unable to pronounce the word correctly.
4) Arrogance/stubbornness: The person pridefully -- with malice aforethought -- mispronounces the word. "We're not in Greece, we're in America, and that's how Americans say it," and "I don't give a damn how the Spanish pronounce it -- I say 'byoonah'," would be how the person might reply were you to call him on the mispronunciation.
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