How important is teaching/learning grammar?

[Ralf]

[Torsten]

Hi Ralf,

I think if you want to learn a language you should treat it as something whole. Instead of dissecting it into different parts such as grammar, vocabulary and pronunciation you need to embrace and accept the entire system. The level of your language skills depend on a number of factors but the most important one is "the amount and quality of your language input". That means, the more you listen to authentic English, the better your English grammar. So what you can do as a teacher is to try to get this concept of "input/output" across to your learners. You can't teach them English -- be it grammar, vocabulary or pronunciation, you can only encourage them to get exposed to English.

The actual language learning process always happens outside of the "classroom". A typical classroom is usually filled with unnatural and awkward English. In English classrooms learners are exposed to a special type of English that a native speaker is very unlikely to ever come across -- unless they deal with foreigners on a regular basis. I'm sure that the entire concept of 'classrooms' will be replaced by other methods of learning English someday. In societies where individuals are encouraged to think on their own, more and more people are realizing that there is only one of way of learning English: being exposed to the language. In societies where the freedom of the individual is more restricted such as China or Iran, people tend to think that an authoritive teacher has to teach them the rules of English grammar.

I think it's much better to get learners to use the resources they have at their disposal instead of trying to explain grammar rules to them. If somebody has a grammar question, they can ask somebody.
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[Ralf]

[Torsten]

Hi Ralf,

The market for traditional language schools is constantly shrinking so they either change their approach or they are out of business. Those people who want you to use very stringent lesson planning, have difficulty thinking themselves and letting go. They want security and structure instead and are afraid of freedom and spontaneity. How can you get exposure to authentic English? Well, at least here in Germany most people have access to original English language media. It's so funny, the Germans watch American movies and TV shows that are dubbed instead of watching them in the original version. They spend years at school learning English and then they aren't even willing and/or able to understand every day phrases. They prefer to spend money on English courses where English teachers explain grammar rules to them. This leads me to think that there is always a huge percentage of people who want to be fooled.

As for "real life situations" -- you can listen to native speakers talk to each other on Paltalk or similar sites. If you don't feel like it, you don't have to say anything yourself, just listen and learn. There are discussion groups for all kinds of topics. Another way of experiencing real life situations is to travel to an English speaking country. However, if you do that you should go alone, without any of your friends or family because else you will end up speaking your mother tongue most of the time. A German who really wants to learn English can hop on a plane or jump into their car and go to England for a week or two. That's much more effective than sitting hours in classrooms where most of the time you hear fellow Germans try to speak English. A classroom would be effective only if there were at least two native speakers communicating with each other so learners would be exposed to correct English.
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[Yankee]

Hi Ralf

I taught adult business people almost exclusively in Germany. My students were my customers. What I discovered very early on was that my customers expected and demanded that I give them grammar.

Grammar definitely has its place in language learning, but I think vocabulary is more important. After all, you can't even begin to deal with a grammar issue until you have acquired words. It is also important to develop a feel for the "melody" of a foreign language. By "melody" I don't mean just rhythm and the pronunciation of individual words, but also the overall flow and grouping of words. To me, the best way to learn the "melody" of anything is to listen to it. Better yet is to be able to listen to a language in full context -- with visual and other sensory input.
.

[Stew.t.]

Hi Yankee and Ralf

When I first started teaching English I thought of "Murphys" (the largest selling grammar book on the market) as the Bible, but that was due to insecurity and being unfamiliar with the field. However I soon learnt that the most effective way to use this book was as a review or even between lessons to clarify understanding.

@Ralf
If we consider your point concerning grammar, does this mean trainers do not need to know the grammar or rules?

Also if we consider exposure to authentic material, I do believe listening is ignored by most trainers as the general response from students is "they speak too fast or in a strange accent". How do we help them overcome this fear?

What does this say about the unwillingness for people to train their ears?

Should a trainer use a standard accent or their natural accent?
* on this point I have been corrected by students for my northern pronunciation of butter as "budder".

Is speaking, in this case something close to RP (as the students wanted), the right approach or does it give inadequate preparation when the learner meets native speakers?

What about the argument of a standard/international English, does it exist and if so should we teach it or expose people to variations of English?

Could native speakers ever decide on a standard or international form?

How does this balance with most English usage being between non-native speakers?

If we take the conventional attitude of teacher talking time versus student talking time, would the exposure approach simply reduce language activation? If so how do we overcome this?

The conventional attitudes to teaching are constantly changing, but what from your experience have been the best and most effective approaches you have used?

Personally I have been more effective when I have done project based work, giving students a set aim, where the working language happened to be English.

Couple this with giving the learner support for developing their own self learning program and the result is usually a lot more effective.

Any thoughts from trainers and learners?

cheers stew.t.
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[Torsten]

[Ralf]

Hi Torsten, Yankee and Stew,

I think you all made a fair point when you mentioned the necessity for students to get used to the trainer's "melody", a bigger focus on listening comprehension and goal/task-oriented learnig. Motivation, of course, is another decisive factor, but I don't necessarily think that you can make the majority of secondary school students listen to English programmes 3 hours a day. However, Torsten, you're probably right, if you were able to introduce a way to expose students to 2 native speakers talking at the same time, then progress would surely be sloping upwards.

Recently, I have taught a small group of 2 secretaries. Both of them had a very hard time concentrating on the lessons after a long day at work. Progress was slowly edging forward, and after 4 months they "gave up" because they thought they were not making "any" progress. And of course that was 90% my fault. I had tried to introduce a learner's diary to them, but the idea was of little avail. In their last lesson, they said they would have wanted a book they could have been able to follow from page 1 to 100. The idea of Small Talk being essential to language progress seemed quite incomprehensible to them.

Sometimes teaching a language can mean nothing more than keeping the punters happy, I suppose.
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[Torsten]

Hi Ralf,

You are right, you won't be able to get the majority of secondary school students to listen to English recordings on a daily basis. But then again, the majority of secondary school students don't want to get top notch jobs or found their own companies.

As for your two secretaries, they are used to rules and structure. Apparently they had decided to take an English course because they thought it might be helpful for their careers. What they hadn't figured out yet was how exactly they were going to achieve their goal. They thought it would be enough to pay money to a school which supplies them with a teacher who 'teaches' them English. They thought that two 'lessons' of English would be sufficient to learn the language. What they didn't realize is that the language learning process takes place outside of the classroom when they are ready and able to use the power of their subconscious mind. The classroom is a good opportunity to pick up some ideas and share experiences. The classroom is not the place where 'students' learn English. However, what they might learn in a classroom is how to learn English.

English language schools sell people on the idea that it is possible to teach English. And customers want to believe that if they purchase an English course, they will be taught English. After all, that's what a school is for, isn't it? What English schools won't tell their customers is that teaching a language is impossible. You can only learn a language and learning a language means getting the 'right amount and quality of input'. There is no classroom in the world that can provide any 'student' with the right amount and quality of language input. Let's say a customer purchases an English course of 90 minutes of 'instruction' per week. That's exactly 3,75% of a typical work week. What type of results do you expect when you are willing to invest less than 4% of your time into learning English?

The vast majority of people who say they want to learn English are not willing to change their habits. They want to carry on watching American movies in their dubbed versions, they want to continue translating unknowing words into their native language and they are not willing to listen to English audio books when they are in their cars. They pay money to an English school so they have an alibi and excuse if they don't achieve the results they want. 'How is it possible that I still can't speak English -- I did pay quite a lot of money to that school, so it's their job to teach me.'
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[Stew.t.]

Hi Torsten and Ralf

Picking up on the nice metaphor by Yankee on "melody", I really am influenced by this notion of getting used to the way people speak through exposure to as much audio as possible.
The average student may be sacred or find listening difficult, but it requires an investment. If this investment is too small as Torsten said , the result (unless they are super talented) will be low.

What is still surprising is that although English is a skill, learners will invest far less time, not necessarily money, in this than other ones.
We invest a lot of time in our education and developing our work skills and sometimes hobbies e.g. piano playing.

I think the crux of the matter is IF the individual sees the real importance of learning a language. With no aim or well thought out intention, the motivation will fall quickly. If companies and individuals saw English as a core competence, then there may be some changes. Until it is is considered less a peripheral skill to a more central one then I am afraid this will not alter.

A self motivated and independent student is a trainers dream. That is why I may struggle with certain individuals, but give my time to those that I can see have the right attitude. We CAN NOT learn for them, and we CAN NOT really maintain their motivation. All we can do is give them the push and hope they free wheel themselves some day.

cheers stew.t.
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[Torsten]

Hi Stew,

You are right, most people fail to learn English well, simply because they don't know why they should learn the language. A person will start to learn English only if they see a connection between the language and their goals. Since most people fail to make that connection they will never be willing to change their habits. I think English shouldn't be a core competence itself but an important means to achieve other core competences such as the willingness to take risks, accept change and share information and experiences with people from other countries. English is a core competence to linguists and translators. To the other people English is an important system that helps them achieve their professional and private goals.
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