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 Tue Sep 18, 2007 8:13 am American Dream. |
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| Torsten wrote: | | Here in Germany a lot of services, which are probably very common in the US or other countries, simply don't exist. For example, the vast majority of Germans clean the interior of their cars themselves. There are lots of car wash stations but they are mainly operated by machines and consequently the car owner has to clean the interior themselves. Some larger stations do offer manual interior cleaning but the prices are so high that the average car owner can't afford this type of service. |
Torsten, you've put a different spin on something that's been on my mind for some time. I have run into a lot of Germans -- many of them with business degrees -- who think that the US employment rate is higher than Germany's right now because, "There are a lot of jobs in the US that don't exist in Germany." Unlike you, they don't perceive these as useful services that are prevented in Germany by red tape. They seem to think of them as some kind of big socialist make-work program, some kind of "brigada", that is somehow established just for the purpose of giving people jobs. They point to the fact that US stores have a lot of employees who frequently greet customers and ask if they're able to find what they're looking for. These Germans often call this a "useless job that wouldn't exist in Germany", and they somehow don't figure out that these employees also have other duties in the store, such as stocking shelves or taking inventory. Some of these Germans even get irritated with those workers because they're not used to being spoken to while they're shopping. However, I have been in many situations where that person walking up and asking to help me made the difference between me buying what I wanted and just walking out without buying anything. One of the Germans who thought this type of job was useless went so far as to tell me that, "If a customer can't find what he wants in a store, that's HIS PROBLEM! It's not the store's problem!" (Believe it or not, he was a businessman, and even so he didn't realize that if a customer can't find something in a store, he'll never buy it and the store has lost potential revenue.)
Anyway, the Germans who talk to me about this seem to see the whole US labor market as a big socialist make-work project, or what you'd call an ABM-Maßnahme in German. When I ask them who's creating the useless jobs, they can't explain it, because they know it's not the government, and that efficient, profitable businesses wouldn't do it either. Nonetheless, it's still hard for them to comprehend that the jobs actually serve an economic purpose. |
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Jamie (K)
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| Tue Sep 18, 2007 8:22 am American Dream. |
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| underdog wrote: | oh, i thought it was about having a big house with a big garden in suburban area, driving a fancy car, owning a beautiful dog, and of course, having a beautiful wife~
well, come to think of it. this is the good life you guys talked about isn't it? |
That part about the beautiful wife is something you added. Many people achieve that "American Dream" with their ugly wife -- or their ugly husband.
The interesting thing about it is not THAT the people achieve that "dream" but HOW they achieve it. A lot of immigrants who've achieved it complain to me that their relatives back home think it just happened by magic, or that maybe everybody gets all that stuff just because they live in the US. This causes them to write their relatives in the US and beg for things. The immigrants complain that their relatives back home are always asking them to buy cousin Ihor a car, or sister Tanți a ball gown, as if they can just conjure money out of nowhere, as if no work were involved.
In fact, when I worked in Europe, I frequently met people who thought that I somehow received a big salary in the US just for being American, even though I didn't work here. |
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Jamie (K)
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| Tue Sep 18, 2007 12:16 pm American Dream. |
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| Jamie (K) wrote: | | Another interesting thing happened when I told a German guy just getting his MBA that if he didn't find the job he wanted right away, he could sell ice cream or do something like that for a while. He looked shocked, but then realized there was a cultural difference in our mentalities. In the US, if you leave the profession you were trained for and open up an ice cream business -- or a coffee shop, like my neighbor who was a financial manager at Ford did -- this looks good on your CV, even if the business failed. Employers think it means you're willing to take risks and go outside the box. They may also think you're coming to them with some new ideas. Germans tell me that in their country a stunt like this hurts your job search, because people will think you're impulsive or "a loser". |
I had an interesting discussion with an American whom I was working with here in Germany. Our job was to 'teach English' to a group of unemployed people from a run-down area in East Germany. When the participants started to introduce themselves in German many of them would say something like "... and now I'm unemployed" or "I have been unemployed for 3 years" etc. At some point one the participants asked the American how to say "I've been unemployed" in English. The American answered "You just don't say it." The group stared at the American and then at me asking for an explanation. Well, the American said in the US you will rarely find a person who would define themself as "unemployed". In Germany it's the official status of lots of people although they often modify the term to "I'm looking for work". The Germans then went on to ask the American what an American says or does if they don't have a regular job. "Well", the American said, "how about 'self-study', 'self-employed', 'working on a project', etc.?" In East Germany the concept of "self-initiative" has yet to be developed. It's much more common here to wait for the government to create jobs. Many engineers would rather sit and wait than do a job that is "below their qualifications". If you can't find a job as an engineer then selling ice cream might be the job that perfectly fits your current situation. At any rate it's much better to do something other than sit and complain because through any activity you gain more experience. Selling ice cream is not just a low paid job but it can be a vital part of a very complex business.
| Jamie (K) wrote: | | Recently a German intern at a company asked me about something he'd seen in the news about some millionaire adventurer who'd gotten into some trouble out in the wilderness. He couldn't believe I hadn't heard about the situation. We got talking about it, and I started to realize that when I lived in Europe I saw that people had a different type of interest in business millionaires than they have here in the US. In Europe, people's interest tends more toward vicarious thrills over the lives of glamorous celebrity millionaires. The media show their risky adventures and treat them like rock stars. In the US there is some of that, but people's interest, and what the media feed them, is more along the lines of how-to information for those who also want to be entrepreneurs. Warren Buffett is a big celebrity in the US, as is Bill Gates. Europe also has people like this, but the European media seem to concentrate more on the Richard Branson type. I attribute it to the idea that most Americans think they actually have a shot at achieving a fraction of what these guys have, if they know how, whereas typical Europeans don't see their lives that way and view these millionaires more as royalty. Maybe someone will disagree with me on that, but I think that for the most part it's true. |
In Germany (especially in the Eastern part) millionaires or any successful business person is looked upon rather suspiciously. Many people here believe that in order to 'get rich', you have to 'exploit' others. They don't understand that the principle works just vice versa. You can only become rich if you enrich others. So the German public views millionaires as either crazy celebreties are shady business people.
| Jamie (K) wrote: | Torsten, you've put a different spin on something that's been on my mind for some time. I have run into a lot of Germans -- many of them with business degrees -- who think that the US employment rate is higher than Germany's right now because, "There are a lot of jobs in the US that don't exist in Germany." Unlike you, they don't perceive these as useful services that are prevented in Germany by red tape. They seem to think of them as some kind of big socialist make-work program, some kind of "brigada", that is somehow established just for the purpose of giving people jobs. They point to the fact that US stores have a lot of employees who frequently greet customers and ask if they're able to find what they're looking for. These Germans often call this a "useless job that wouldn't exist in Germany", and they somehow don't figure out that these employees also have other duties in the store, such as stocking shelves or taking inventory. Some of these Germans even get irritated with those workers because they're not used to being spoken to while they're shopping. However, I have been in many situations where that person walking up and asking to help me made the difference between me buying what I wanted and just walking out without buying anything. One of the Germans who thought this type of job was useless went so far as to tell me that, "If a customer can't find what he wants in a store, that's HIS PROBLEM! It's not the store's problem!" (Believe it or not, he was a businessman, and even so he didn't realize that if a customer can't find something in a store, he'll never buy it and the store has lost potential revenue.)
Anyway, the Germans who talk to me about this seem to see the whole US labor market as a big socialist make-work project, or what you'd call an ABM-Maßnahme in German. When I ask them who's creating the useless jobs, they can't explain it, because they know it's not the government, and that efficient, profitable businesses wouldn't do it either. Nonetheless, it's still hard for them to comprehend that the jobs actually serve an economic purpose. |
Well, since the Germans are used to regulations and control they think that the government is responsible for creating jobs and to a certain extend, the German government does create jobs by funding all those labor and training projects for unemployed people. The problem with those jobs is that the vast majority of them are indeed "useless" because the people doing them don't like to do them. The jobs are artificial which means there is no real demand for the services provided through them. That's where I see the difference between a person greeting customers in a US store and an unemployed German who is completing a "work placement" organized and funded by the government. Germans have a hard time understanding how jobs are created. They think that this is the responsibility of an institution rather than an individual. If a store employs people who great and communicate with customers, then how can this be a useless job? Provided the people working in that store work there because they love to work with people, provide service and learn how a business is run, it's an excellent concept that will generate even more jobs and business ideas. If the people working there are placed into the store and paid by the government, then it's a concept that will fail. It's as simple as that.
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Torsten
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| Tue Sep 18, 2007 12:24 pm American Dream. |
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| underdog wrote: | oh, i thought it was about having a big house with a big garden in suburban area, driving a fancy car, owning a beautiful dog, and of course, having a beautiful wife~
well, come to think of it. this is the good life you guys talked about isn't it? |
I Underdog,
In order for a large part of the population to have the material things you've mentioned, you have to create a system that provides many intangible things such as rule of law, civil rights, an education system, national security, etc.
Before you can get a fancy car and a big house, you have to understand that you need to make useful contributions to the society. This is a basic principle that many people in the world neither comprehend nor accept.
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Torsten
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| Fri Sep 21, 2007 13:31 pm American Dream. |
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| Konstantin wrote: | What is it all about?
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The American Dream is to make a fortune from nothing. |
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Harry Smiith
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Location: Moscow, Russia
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| Sat Sep 22, 2007 0:05 am American Dream. |
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Harry, usually when Americans talk about the American dream, it doesn't mean making a fortune from nothing, but to work hard enough that you've got your own house, a yard, a family, a car or two, enough money to be comfortable, and nobody bothering you too much.
When I lived in the former Soviet Bloc, I noticed that people confuse this idea with the images of the Robber Barons from the days of laissez faire capitalism. By the American dream, we don't usually mean becoming an oligarch, although that's how many Russians and some residents of former communist countries still misunderstand it. It was really hard to make some of them understand capitalist values as most Americans understand them. |
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Jamie (K)
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Joined: 24 Feb 2006
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Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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| Sun Sep 23, 2007 10:50 am American Dream. |
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Most people leave their Countries and move to the US to earn money.. They don't really like this Country ,they just want to earn money..
I would never agreed to live in the US and I don't think they're right ,when moving to there to clean Toilets ,work as a dustmen..
I think US Government has to do something with Illegals in This Country..
Nowadays lots of Chinese people come to my Country to earn money,they're glad to work for almost nothing ,but I'm not glad at all,I want them back to their Countries..
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Che Gevara
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| Tue Sep 25, 2007 9:01 am American Dream. |
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| Jamie (K) wrote: | Harry, usually when Americans talk about the American dream, it doesn't mean making a fortune from nothing, but to work hard enough that you've got your own house, a yard, a family, a car or two, enough money to be comfortable, and nobody bothering you too much.
When I lived in the former Soviet Bloc, I noticed that people confuse this idea with the images of the Robber Barons from the days of laissez faire capitalism. By the American dream, we don't usually mean becoming an oligarch, although that's how many Russians and some residents of former communist countries still misunderstand it. It was really hard to make some of them understand capitalist values as most Americans understand them. |
Where in the former Soviet Bloc have you lived? Do you think working hard one can become rich in the USA? I think he can imorove his living conditions but he can never become rich even if he works seven days a week. It doesn't matter where you live you can become rich if you find yourself in a suitable situation when money comes to you. I just want to say that you get a chance to earn lots of money and you realise that it's your chance and you don't miss it. |
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Harry Smiith
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| Tue Sep 25, 2007 13:51 pm American Dream. |
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| Harry Smiith wrote: | | Do you think working hard one can become rich in the USA? I think he can imorove his living conditions but he can never become rich even if he works seven days a week. It doesn't matter where you live you can become rich if you find yourself in a suitable situation when money comes to you. I just want to say that you get a chance to earn lots of money and you realise that it's your chance and you don't miss it. |
You can't become rich in the US just by working hard, but becoming rich is not all luck. It's been demonstrated that in the US you can become rich by working hard, saving 10% to 15% of your income and putting it into investments that generate passive income themselves. In other words, you have to be frugal and put your savings into stocks, bonds, savings accounts and businesses that provide income that you don't have to work for. Over a period of decades, this makes a person rich. Even some mentally retarded people have become rich this way.
It's not possible to do this in some other countries, because the securities markets are too badly regulated, or because racketeers will find a way to separate you from your money. |
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Jamie (K)
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| Wed Oct 10, 2007 20:56 pm American Dream. |
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I think you can only become rich if you help other people solve their problems and make their lives better. This principle is universal and works in any country. However, the US provide much better conditions for somebody who wants to be of service and create value for others than most other countries.
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Torsten
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| Thu Oct 11, 2007 0:15 am American Dream. |
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yeah
People don't like buying products from an a**hole -- sounds simplistic, but it's generally true.
It behooves a businessperson (or prospective businessperson) to be good to customers and stakeholders: sell a good product at a fair price (therein providing value); employ people in decent jobs with fair pay; and provide a solid investment opportunity for investors.
etc.
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