| Phrase 'that once would have been two days hence' | let and be allowed to URGENT |
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 Wed Sep 26, 2007 4:27 am present perfect tense |
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| Yankee wrote: | | That wasn't my point, Jamie. My point was that whatever the further specifics of "did an MBA together" might be, the speaker clearly sees the action as finished/ended/stopped. So, "did an MBA together" can be viewed as a point in past time -- just as "invented the assembly line" can be. This sort of point in the past can be used as the "starting point" when referring to other states or activities that have existed or have been happening up to now. |
Let's change it to, "I have known Egbert since we studied for an MBA together". You'd probably argue that this indicates a finished event, but to me it could just as well indicate a habitual repeated action in the past. They got to know each other while engaging in this habitual repeated action. After all, they didn't start knowing each other at the point when they finished their MBA, so whether you use "did" or "studied", the verb in the simple past represents a process more than it represents an event. |
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Jamie (K)
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
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Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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Yankee
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| Wed Sep 26, 2007 11:52 am present perfect tense |
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&uot | Yankee wrote: | You can't possibly be trying to say that the simple past tense cannot be used to talk about something that occurred over a period of time in the past.  |
That's right. I'm not trying to say that.
| Yankee wrote: | Are you trying to say that you would prefer this:
;I have known Egbert since we have studied for an MBA together."  |
No, I'm not saying that. The present perfect sounds terrible in that sentence, because "studied" represents a repeated, habitual action. In this case I'm telling you that the simple past in that sentence (the version that sounds good) does not necessarily indicate a single finished event, and could actually indicate a habitual action that spanned some longer period of time.
| Yankee wrote: | Or have you simply changed over to a new topic?
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I've changed over to a new aspect of the "since clause". I think I've already established that people do use the present perfect in SOME of them to indicate a single, finished action, if they perceive that that single action has produced some kind of change that lasts until the present. They also sometimes use the present perfect in some "since" clauses to disambiguate it and show that the event happened just once, and was not a habit or something that was repeated. This use of the present perfect tense is not covered in the grammar books, but it's real and relatively common, and it's easy to find examples of its use that don't sound ungrammatical. I don't care that you didn't find anything in the British National Corpus.
What I'm doing now is countering your idea that a verb in the simple past in that "since" clause necessarily indicates a single, finished event. I gave the example, "I have known Egbert since we studied for an MBA together." because "studied" can indicate a habitual action that spans a period of time, not a one-time event, as you keep saying the simple past would indicate there. In many cases, it's simply not clear in sentences like that whether the verb in the simple past indicates a habitual event or a one-time event, even though in both cases the event would be finished and in the past.
"My cousin and I have been close since we shucked corn together as kids."
"Shucked" indicates a habitual, repeated action over time.
"I've been in love with her since we shared an office together."
"Shared" indicates a habitual, repeated action over time.
In both cases, the verb in the simple past, in the "since" clause, doesn't indicate a single, one-time event, but a repeated, habitual action occupying a longer span of time, over which the people's feelings developed.
This is why, at street level, people sometimes use the present perfect instead of the simple past:
"Since I did this, my computer hasn't crashed."
It's not clear whether "did" indicates a one-time action or a habitual one.
"Since I've done this, my computer hasn't crashed."
It's now clear that the "since" clause indicates a single, finished action at some unspecified time in the past.
Once again, I don't care what's in the British National Corpus. People really do this. |
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Jamie (K)
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 4337
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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| Wed Sep 26, 2007 13:06 pm present perfect tense |
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OK, good, you were on a new topic. The word 'event' was yours, not mine. I couldn't imagine why you seemed to be disagreeing with something I hadn't said.
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Amy
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ESL teacher, translator, and a native speaker of American English |
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Yankee
I'm a Communicator ;-)
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Posts: 7827
Location: USA
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| Thu Sep 27, 2007 2:56 am present perfect tense |
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| Yankee wrote: | | OK, good, you were on a new topic. The word 'event' was yours, not mine. I couldn't imagine why you seemed to be disagreeing with something I hadn't said. |
I was just "adding a new dimension". 
You know I often veer off the subject. |
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Jamie (K)
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 4337
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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| Phrase 'that once would have been two days hence' | let and be allowed to URGENT |
