present perfect tense

vanity fair · Sun Sep 16, 2007 23:19 pm *present perfect tense*

I came across a definition that we use present perfect with another present perfect to describe two states that have existed since a time in the past, for example:

Since I've known him, he's always worn the same sweater.

Is it possible to apply this same rule in the next sentence:

Since I've met her, I've never seen her lose her temper.(It says in the answer key that the sentence should read as follows: Since I met her, I've never seen her lose her temper.)

Jamie (K) · Mon Sep 17, 2007 1:57 am *present perfect tense*

"Since I've met her, I've never seen her lose her temper," sounds perfectly normal to my native ears, and the one in your answer key doesn't sound good to me. I can't find the exact reason in a grammar book, but I think it's because "since I've met her" indicates something that happened at an unspecified time in the past. Using "since I met her..." in that sentence sounds a bit low colloquial to me, but some other native speakers might disagree. Wait for confirmation. Smile

vanity fair · Mon Sep 17, 2007 3:49 am *present perfect tense*

Thanks a lot!

I agree with you and it would be nice to have a second opinion regarding the grammatical rule but it's quite enough for me to have a confirmation from a native speaker,

Jovana

Yankee · Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:58 am *present perfect tense*

I hate to stir things up, but I disagree with Jamie and I agree with your answer key. Cool

"Since I met her, I've never seen her lose her temper" not only sounds much better grammatically, but it is also more logical.

"Since I met her" refers to a single point in time in the past. Meeting her is a complete and finished past action. The sentence refers back to that point (the completed action) and then talks about a totally different activity that has not taken place at any time from that specific point in the past ("met her") right up until now.

Saying "since I've known her" is different. The meaning of the verb is different. Knowing her is not complete or finished. Knowing her began when you met her, and knowing her has continued right up until now. That's why the present perfect would be appropriate with the verb know (and not with the verb meet) in what would otherwise be the very same sentence:
Since I've known her, I've never seen her lose her temper."

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Jamie, your post really surprised me. Were you possibly thinking about the causal use of "since" Question

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Amy
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ESL teacher, translator, and a native speaker of American English

lost_soul · Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:49 am *present perfect tense*

Hi, Amy

I heard this phrase "How long has it been since you've seen your son" in South Park.
I asked almost the same question here : Question and Jamie gave me the same answer.
What would be your comment on this usage ? Would you say that phrase?

I think, maybe if we insert "the last time", then we should use "the Past Simple". I.e. "since the last time I met her, I've never seen her lose her temper"
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Alex

How much upchuck would a woodchuck upchuck if a woodchuck could upchuck ?

(a guy from Russia)

vanity fair · Mon Sep 17, 2007 13:18 pm *present perfect tense*

Hi Amy,

So, the only difference between these two sentences is whether the action is completed or incompleted and the rule I stated is used depending on the verb and the completion of the action?

I'm so complicated! Shocked

Jovana

lost_soul · Mon Sep 17, 2007 13:55 pm *present perfect tense*

Jamie (K) · Mon Sep 17, 2007 14:10 pm *present perfect tense*

vanity fair · Mon Sep 17, 2007 14:14 pm *present perfect tense*

vanity fair · Mon Sep 17, 2007 14:29 pm *present perfect tense*

Jamie,

Perhaps we could use past simple in this way: Ever since I met her, I've never seen her lose her temper.

I found the previous stated rule and examples from Longman's "Grammar and Vocabulary for Cambridge Advanced and Proficiency" by Richard Side and Guy Wellman which I use for the preparation of my CPE exam

Jovana

Yankee · Mon Sep 17, 2007 15:44 pm *present perfect tense*

Hi Jovana (and Jamie)

I agree that "ever since I met her" is correct. But that is exactly my point -- your original sentence means exactly the same thing. You refer to a specific single point in the past -- and that specific single point in the past is known to the speaker. The sentence is not a question referring to an as yet unspecified point in the past. The sentence is a statement and refers to a specific point in the finished past, and the rest of the sentence depends on knowing that starting point. It's not really any different from saying "Since last February".

If the intended meaning of the verb 'meet' was something other than "be introduced to", then I would reword the sentence.
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_________________
Amy
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ESL teacher, translator, and a native speaker of American English

Yankee · Mon Sep 17, 2007 15:53 pm *present perfect tense*

lost_soul · Mon Sep 17, 2007 15:56 pm *present perfect tense*

Yankee · Mon Sep 17, 2007 16:08 pm *present perfect tense*

Hi Alex

Yes, if you add "the last time" to your question, the speaker will likely use the past simple.
(I can't speak for the Brits, though. Laughing

)

Keep in mind that one of the main points in my first post was the meaning of the word 'meet'. I think that is a crucial element in the decision about which tense is most appropriate. The fact that the sentence is not a question is also important.
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_________________
Amy
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ESL teacher, translator, and a native speaker of American English

Yankee · Mon Sep 17, 2007 16:59 pm *present perfect tense*

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