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 #2 (permalink) Mon Sep 17, 2007 0:57 am present perfect tense |
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"Since I've met her, I've never seen her lose her temper," sounds perfectly normal to my native ears, and the one in your answer key doesn't sound good to me. I can't find the exact reason in a grammar book, but I think it's because "since I've met her" indicates something that happened at an unspecified time in the past. Using "since I met her..." in that sentence sounds a bit low colloquial to me, but some other native speakers might disagree. Wait for confirmation.  |
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Jamie (K)
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| #3 (permalink) Mon Sep 17, 2007 2:49 am present perfect tense |
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Thanks a lot!
I agree with you and it would be nice to have a second opinion regarding the grammatical rule but it's quite enough for me to have a confirmation from a native speaker,
Jovana |
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Vanity Fair
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Yankee
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| #5 (permalink) Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:49 am present perfect tense |
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Hi, Amy
I heard this phrase "How long has it been since you've seen your son" in South Park.
I asked almost the same question here : Question and Jamie gave me the same answer.
What would be your comment on this usage ? Would you say that phrase?
I think, maybe if we insert "the last time", then we should use "the Past Simple". I.e. "since the last time I met her, I've never seen her lose her temper" |
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Lost_Soul
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| #6 (permalink) Mon Sep 17, 2007 12:18 pm present perfect tense |
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Hi Amy,
So, the only difference between these two sentences is whether the action is completed or incompleted and the rule I stated is used depending on the verb and the completion of the action?
I'm so complicated! 
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Vanity Fair
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Lost_Soul
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| #8 (permalink) Mon Sep 17, 2007 13:10 pm present perfect tense |
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| Yankee wrote: |
| "Since I met her" refers to a single point in time in the past. Meeting her is a complete and finished past action. The sentence refers back to that point (the completed action) and then talks about a totally different activity that has not taken place at any time from that specific point in the past ("met her") right up until now. |
Amy, if someone says, "I've eaten swordfish once," he is correctly describing a complete and finished past action. "We've had our roof repaired by this company," is also a perfectly grammatical description of a complete, finished action in the past. Just as in Jovanna's sentence, and in Alex's sentence from South Park, the specific time at which the action took place is not mentioned, ergo the use of the present perfect tense.
If the specific time were mentioned, then that would force the use of the simple present tense. Thus you would have to say, "Since I met her 20 years ago, I've never seen her lose her temper." It would not be correct to say, "Since I've met her 20 years ago, I've never seen her lose her temper."
Using the simple past where the time is not specified, "Since I met her, I have never seen her lose her temper," could have the alternative meaning of, "Because I used to meet her, I have never seen her lose her temper." The present perfect doesn't allow this other interpretation. I know that Americans use the simple past for a sentence like this on the street, but I don't think it's the highest-sounding English. |
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Jamie (K)
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Vanity Fair
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| #10 (permalink) Mon Sep 17, 2007 13:29 pm present perfect tense |
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Jamie,
Perhaps we could use past simple in this way: Ever since I met her, I've never seen her lose her temper.
I found the previous stated rule and examples from Longman's "Grammar and Vocabulary for Cambridge Advanced and Proficiency" by Richard Side and Guy Wellman which I use for the preparation of my CPE exam
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Vanity Fair
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| #11 (permalink) Mon Sep 17, 2007 14:44 pm present perfect tense |
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Hi Jovana (and Jamie)
I agree that "ever since I met her" is correct. But that is exactly my point -- your original sentence means exactly the same thing. You refer to a specific single point in the past -- and that specific single point in the past is known to the speaker. The sentence is not a question referring to an as yet unspecified point in the past. The sentence is a statement and refers to a specific point in the finished past, and the rest of the sentence depends on knowing that starting point. It's not really any different from saying "Since last February".
If the intended meaning of the verb 'meet' was something other than "be introduced to", then I would reword the sentence.
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Yankee
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| #12 (permalink) Mon Sep 17, 2007 14:53 pm present perfect tense |
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| lost_soul wrote: |
Hi, Amy
I heard this phrase "How long has it been since you've seen your son" in South Park.
I asked almost the same question here : Question and Jamie gave me the same answer.
What would be your comment on this usage ? Would you say that phrase?
I think, maybe if we insert "the last time", then we should use "the Past Simple". I.e. "since the last time I met her, I've never seen her lose her temper" |
Hi Alex
I agree with the usage of the present perfect in that sentence. One of the reasons is that it is a question. The speaker clearly does not know when the last time was. That's why he asked -- the time is as yet completely unspecified. In addition, there is the fact that you can see someone on multiple occasions, but being introduced to someone (meet) typically happens only once.
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Yankee
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| #13 (permalink) Mon Sep 17, 2007 14:56 pm present perfect tense |
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| Yankee wrote: |
Hi Alex
I agree with the usage of the present perfect in that sentence. One of the reasons is that it is a question. The speaker clearly does not know when the last time was. (That's why he asked.) In addition, there is the fact that you can see someone on multiple occasions, but being introduced to someone (meet) typically happens only once.
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Thanks for your reply, Amy. Do you agree that adding "the last time" demands using "The Past Simple", not "The Present Perfect" ?
i.e. How long has it been since the last time you saw your son ? |
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Lost_Soul
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| #14 (permalink) Mon Sep 17, 2007 15:08 pm present perfect tense |
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Hi Alex
Yes, if you add "the last time" to your question, the speaker will likely use the past simple.
(I can't speak for the Brits, though.  )
Keep in mind that one of the main points in my first post was the meaning of the word 'meet'. I think that is a crucial element in the decision about which tense is most appropriate. The fact that the sentence is not a question is also important.
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Yankee
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| #15 (permalink) Mon Sep 17, 2007 15:59 pm present perfect tense |
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| Jamie (K) wrote: |
| Amy, if someone says, "I've eaten swordfish once," he is correctly describing a complete and finished past action. |
I agree. And surely you will agree that the structure of that sentence is not only different, but also simpler than the one in question.
| Jamie (K) wrote: |
| "We've had our roof repaired by this company," is also a perfectly grammatical description of a complete, finished action in the past. |
I agree. And again, surely you will agree that the structure of that sentence is simpler than the one in question. The sentence in question (Green Knight's sentence) has two verbs, and the verb 'meet' is used to refer to a specific, single point in the past. That point serves as the starting point for measuring some other activity which continues up to now. That specific single point in the past (met) is known to the speaker. As I said in my previous post, it's not really any different from saying "since February" (for example).
In addition, I'm sure you will agree that it would be equally and absolutely correct to say "We had our roof repaired by this company." Whether the present perfect or the past simple would be preferable in that sentence depends completely on the broader context and/or the speaker's point of view.
| Jamie (K) wrote: |
| Just as in Jovanna's sentence, and in Alex's sentence from South Park, the specific time at which the action took place is not mentioned, ergo the use of the present perfect tense. |
You have not yet actually addressed my points, Jamie. I believe that both the meaning of the verb 'meet' -- as it is used in the sentence -- and the fact that 'met' is used as a starting point to measure the length of time up to now that some other activity has taken place are important. Did you interpret the verb 'meet' to have some meaning other than 'be introduced to'?
| Jamie (K) wrote: |
| If the specific time were mentioned, then that would force the use of the simple present tense. |
I assume you meant 'past'.
Surely you are not saying that the simple past tense can only be used when a specific time is actually mentioned in the same sentence.
| Jamie (K) wrote: |
| Thus you would have to say, "Since I met her 20 years ago, I've never seen her lose her temper." It would not be correct to say, "Since I've met her 20 years ago, I've never seen her lose her temper." |
Exactly!!!!
"Since I've met her 20 years ago" doesn't work!
| Jamie (K) wrote: |
| Using the simple past where the time is not specified, "Since I met her, I have never seen her lose her temper," could have the alternative meaning of, "Because I used to meet her, I have never seen her lose her temper." The present perfect doesn't allow this other interpretation. |
I don't think it is reasonably possible to interpret the original sentence with a causal 'since' at all. That was actually another of my points. I thought you might possibly have focused mainly on the first half of the sentence without fully digesting the rest of it. In other words, your initial post was so utterly inexplicable to me that I assumed you must have misread the sentence.
Would you agree that you could use 'since' to mean 'because' (along with the present perfect) this way, for example:
Since I've met her, I can tell you what she looks like.
I also think it would be more reasonable to contend that the word 'since' (in my sentence above) could possibly be interpreted two different ways. I do not think this is the case in Green Knight's sentence. To me, it is not reasonable to interpret the word 'since' as 'because' in Green Knight's sentence.
| Jamie (K) wrote: |
| I know that Americans use the simple past for a sentence like this on the street, but I don't think it's the highest-sounding English. |
Are you calling my English "low-sounding street English"?
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