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Wed Sep 19, 2007 0:35 am Difference between 'which' and 'that'... |
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1. Grammar: Traditional Rules, Word Order, Agreement, and Case
§ 76. which which referring to a clause or sentence. The relative pronoun which can sometimes refer to a clause or sentence, as opposed to a noun phrase: She ignored him, which proved to be unwise. They swept the council elections, which could never have happened under the old rules. While these examples are perfectly acceptable, using which in this way sometimes creates ambiguities. The sentence It emerged that Martha made the complaint, which surprised everybody may mean either that the complaint itself was surprising or that it was surprising that Martha made it. You can avoid the ambiguity by using other constructions such as It emerged that Martha made the complaint, a revelation that surprised everybody. It is important to remember that you can use which in this way only when the clause or sentence it refers to precedes it. When the clause or sentence follows, you must use what, particularly in formal style: Still, he has not said he will withdraw, which is more surprising. Still, what is more surprising, he has not said he will withdraw.
http://www.bartleby.com/64/C001/076.html
1. Grammar: Traditional Rules, Word Order, Agreement, and Case
§ 62. that that / which (restrictive and nonrestrictive clauses). The standard rule requires that you use that only to introduce a restrictive (or defining) relative clause, which identifies the person or thing being talked about; in this use it should never be preceded by a comma. Thus, in the sentence The house that Jack built has been torn down, the clause that Jack built is a restrictive clause telling which specific house was torn down. Similarly, in I am looking for a book that is easy to read, the restrictive clause that is easy to read tells what kind of book is desired. 1 By contrast, you use which only with nonrestrictive (or nondefining) clauses, which give additional information about something that has already been identified in the context; in this use, which is always preceded by a comma. Thus you should say The students in Chemistry 101 have been complaining about the textbook, which (not that) is hard to follow. The clause which is hard to follow is nonrestrictive in that it does not indicate which text is being complained about; even if it were omitted, we would know that the phrase the textbook refers to the text in Chemistry 101. It should be easy to follow the rule in nonrestrictive clauses like this, since which here sounds more natural than that. 2 Some people extend the rule and insist that, just as that should be used only in restrictive clauses, which should be used only in nonrestrictive clauses. By this thinking, you should avoid using which in sentences such as I need a book which will tell me all about city gardening, where the restrictive clause which will tell me all about city gardening describes what sort of book is needed. But this use of which with restrictive clauses is very common, even in edited prose. If you fail to follow the rule in this point, you have plenty of company. Moreover, there are some situations in which which is preferable to that. Which can be especially useful where two or more relative clauses are joined by and or or: It is a philosophy in which ordinary people may find solace and which many have found reason to praise. You may also want to use which to introduce a restrictive clause when the preceding phrase contains a that: We want to assign only that book which will be most helpful. 3 omitting that. You can omit that in a relative clause when the subject of the clause is different from the word or phrase the clause refers to. Thus, you can say either the book that I was reading or the book I was reading. You can also omit that when it introduces a subordinate clause: I think we should try again. You should not omit that, however, when the subordinate clause begins with an adverbial phrase or anything other than the subject: She said that under no circumstances would she allow us to skip the meeting. The book argues that eventually the housing supply will increase. This last sentence would be ambiguous if that were omitted, since the adverb eventually could then be construed as modifying either argues or will increase. 4 that instead of who. The man that wanted to talk to you just called back. Some people say that you can only use who and not that to introduce a restrictive relative clause that identifies a person. But that has been used in this way for centuries. It is a quintessential English usage, going back to the Old English period, and has been used by our best writers. So it is entirely acceptable to write either the man that wanted to talk to you or the man who wanted to talk to you.
http://www.bartleby.com/64/C001/062.html#THAT |
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Auldglory I'm new here and I like it ;-)
Joined: 13 Sep 2007 Posts: 16
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Torsten Site Admin

Joined: 25 Sep 2003 Posts: 8044 Location: EU
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Wed Sep 19, 2007 15:37 pm Difference between 'which' and 'that' |
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Hi Torsten,
Regarding the relative pronouns that and what
I was always taught that 'what' only can used when the first part of the sentence doesn't contain the object, e.g.
I saw, what was a house before. OK
The one thing what nobody could understand or explain was...NOK The one thing that nobody could understand or explain was...OK
Am I right? |
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Attila I'm here quite often ;-)
Joined: 12 Jul 2006 Posts: 127 Location: Hungary
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Wed Sep 19, 2007 16:30 pm Difference between 'which' and 'that'... |
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I find your examples fine except for this one:
I saw, what was a house before = I saw what the house had been before |
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Lost_Soul I'm a Communicator ;-)

Joined: 15 Sep 2006 Posts: 1861 Location: South Park, Colorado, USA
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Wed Sep 19, 2007 16:48 pm Difference between 'which' and 'that' |
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The sentence I saw, what was a house before is incorrect, Attila. First off, the comma is out of place, second off, the wrong article, incorrect word order, ... For my part, I don't like your sentence with 'what' .
Oh, Alex, hadn't seen your coming.  |
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Pamela I'm a Communicator ;-)

Joined: 14 Mar 2006 Posts: 1236 Location: Rf
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Wed Sep 19, 2007 17:51 pm Difference between 'which' and 'that'... |
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Here is my alternative: I saw how the house had looked before. |
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Pamela I'm a Communicator ;-)

Joined: 14 Mar 2006 Posts: 1236 Location: Rf
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Wed Sep 19, 2007 21:21 pm Difference between 'which' and 'that'... |
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Hi All,
Thanks for your replies !!!! |
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Iconoclast006 New Member

Joined: 18 Sep 2007 Posts: 5 Location: India
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| meaning of 'would' | any vs. some |