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 #32 (permalink) Mon Sep 24, 2007 12:11 pm Is this fair? |
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| Ralf wrote: |
| Thing is, once you've experienced a good lifestyle, the odds are 10:1 against returning to your home country. Naturally, you make new friends and establish family bonds. Maybe you have a big network of fellow countrymen who speak your language. At the end of the day, you stay. |
That's an interesting point, Ralf. Two friends of mine in Germany, both of whom happen to be British, were quite envious of me when I told them I was returning to the US. Both said things such as "Good for you! I wish I could do the same thing." Both longed to return to the UK, but both felt that they couldn't -- for a number of reasons. Work was apparently the main reason in both cases. For one, there really were no longer any family-related reasons not to go back to the UK. She was a divorced mother of two grown kids (both born and raised in Germany), and the kids no longer lived at home. One was away at university and the other was actually working in the UK. Both of my friends apparently felt that they had to stay in Germany mainly because of their jobs. Both are free-lance ESL teachers.
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Yankee
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| #33 (permalink) Mon Sep 24, 2007 12:44 pm Is this fair? |
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| Ralf wrote: |
| And I think this is also what the American dream was initially about. Nobody wants to desert their roots, but everybody wants to live well. |
Oh, think again! I meet plenty of people every day who DID want to desert their roots! My classes are full of them!
There are people who wanted to desert their roots because where they lived families had death vendettas going on for centuries, and they wanted to live in a place that didn't have that tradition.
I had a student who had founded a chain of electronics stores in his country, and even though he was rich, his real goal in life was to be some kind of teacher. The system in his country was so corrupt that he couldn't get into a university without paying big bribes, so rigid that he couldn't get in at his ripe old age of 37, so he wanted to leave that mess and come to a place where he could achieve what he wanted to without bribery and without constantly having to worry about getting cut up with a machete in a senseless tribal war. He loves the US, and he doesn't want to live anywhere else now.
I know MANY people who wanted to leave their roots because, even though they were law-abiding citizens, they woke up every morning wondering, "Is this the day I get arrested?" A famous lawyer they admired opened her mouth one to many times and was arrested, subjected to electroshock until she was stupid, and then let out on the street to eat out of garbage cans as a "warning" to other people. The young women had to worry because in the capital city, it was relatively common for the dictator's son to notice a girl on the street, point her out, and have the police later pick her up and deliver her so that he could rape her. The Christians might receive visits from Muslim gangs who would tell them that if they didn't convert to Islam, their house would be given to a Muslim family. If they didn't convert, and refused to move out of their house, they were killed. If they did convert, the gang was liable to come back, take their daughters, and force them into marriage to someone they didn't know.
I could give you stories and stories, but the point is that these people hated their roots, wanted to leave them, and never wanted to return. They tell me things like, "If I had a choice between being rich in my country or picking up garbage in the US, I'd rather pick up garbage." They say the same thing about Canada, if they live there.
Ralf, you come from a country "with liberty and justice for all", as it says in the American pledge of allegiance. It's hard for someone from a country like Ireland or Germany to imagine someone actually WANTING to leave his roots, but I hear about it from people every day. |
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Jamie (K)
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| #34 (permalink) Mon Sep 24, 2007 12:47 pm Is this fair? |
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| Yankee wrote: |
| Both of my friends apparently felt that they had to stay in Germany mainly because of their jobs. Both are free-lance ESL teachers. |
That's understandable. I often want to move back overseas, but I can't, because in my home town I've got a whole complex of contacts that allow me a good freelance living. If I moved, it would take me years to build that back up in another place. And I'm one of those people who feels safer if I don't have an employer. |
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Jamie (K)
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| #35 (permalink) Mon Sep 24, 2007 13:14 pm Is this fair? |
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| Jamie (K) wrote: |
| Ralf, you come from a country "with liberty and justice for all", as it says in the American pledge of allegiance. It's hard for someone from a country like Ireland or Germany to imagine someone actually WANTING to leave his roots, but I hear about it from people every day. |
Jamie, there is some truth in what you said and yet there isn't. Surely there are people such as political refugees or poverty struck peons who seek escape from the hands of their homeland more than anything else. But I'm convinced that even those people miss there homes in one way or another.
In our debate we have mainly been talking about immigrants from Poland, Georgia and China. I'm not too familiar with life in China, but I'd say that Polish and Georgian people do miss there homes. Those people are proud of their heritage, probably similar to the way Irish people have always been proud of their country. The Irish fled from the famine and the opression of the crown, and abroad they produced folk songs and reels lamenting the loss of their home.
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 Ralf
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| #36 (permalink) Mon Sep 24, 2007 14:39 pm Is this fair? |
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| Ralf wrote: |
| Jamie, there is some truth in what you said and yet there isn't. |
Well, it's only not true if someone chooses to misread it as a generalized statement about ALL immigrants, which is what Westerners on this site tend to do when I make a point.
| Ralf wrote: |
| Surely there are people such as political refugees or poverty struck peons who seek escape from the hands of their homeland more than anything else. But I'm convinced that even those people miss there homes in one way or another. |
They miss their culture, but they somehow graft it onto their present circumstances in a way that satisfies them enough. It's very strange to see them adapting. Chaldeans from Iraq don't have their local pilgrimage sites, so in my area they've discovered places that they're using for the same purpose. Their apartments now usually have on the wall pictures of Fr. Solanus Casey, who was an Irish-American monk in my city who is being considered for canonization.
You can also experience different levels of homesickness. When I lived in Europe, I would insist that I never felt homesick, but on the rare occasions when I listened to American radio there (through the armed forces network), I would get an occasional twitter in my heart when I'd hear an American woman introduce herself and her first name didn't end with "a". But that was about all of it. Abroad I felt like I was home, and I didn't really have any desire to return to my birth country.
Anyway, just because someone misses his birth country to some degree, that doesn't mean he doesn't accept his new country and actually wants to move back.
There's another phenomenon I witness, most often among Polish women, for some reason. After immigrating, some of them miss no opportunity to talk about how much they hate the US and would like to return to Poland. They particularly like to tell this to Americans, whose typical reaction is, "Nobody invited you here anyway, so nobody will stop you from going back." Then the person will buy tickets back to Poland. They'll flaunt the fact around, and make sure everyone knows they're leaving this hell hole America and going back home. The big day comes, and they leave. They're gone for two or three months. Then you suddenly see them back in the US, and they're no longer complaining about America and no longer talking about their idyllic homeland. It's anybody's guess what happens in Poland to change their minds.
| Ralf wrote: |
| In our debate we have mainly been talking about immigrants from Poland, Georgia and China. I'm not too familiar with life in China, but I'd say that Polish and Georgian people do miss there homes. Those people are proud of their heritage, probably similar to the way Irish people have always been proud of their country. The Irish fled from the famine and the opression of the crown, and abroad they produced folk songs and reels lamenting the loss of their home. |
In the case of the Polish and the Irish in America, there is this pride. But starting with the third generation, when this pride remains, it's disembodied from any real knowledge or experience of their country of origin. You get later generations who are indistinguishable from other Americans, except for the fact that they broadcast their ethnic origins in various ways. They hold weird festivals that are not really Polish or Irish and are embarrassing to real Poles and Irishmen. They go to "Polish" churches where everybody is "Polish", but nobody is from Poland, and nobody can speak more than a few sentences of Polish. They even have masses accompanied by polka music, which would be appallingly sacrilegious to real Poles from Poland. The "Irish" will have their own social clubs that involve mostly drinking and bragging about the superiority of the Irish. Once I went to a "Czech" festival held by people like this, and I unintentionally infuriated a woman by saying -- based on years living in the Czech lands -- that the Czech nation has about the same proportion of smart people and idiots as any other nation. This enraged her, because her whole self-esteem appeared to be based on the idea that her ancestors' nation is some kind of master race.
And that leads up to another point. You only seem to find this disembodied, distorted ethnic pride, and the conviction that a nationality is superior, among people who are not superior. Strange but true. You can meet skilled, educated, accomplished third- and fourth-generation Americans who, when asked the ethnicity of their great-grandparents will say, "I'm not sure. I think they were from Poland or someplace like that," or, "I think they were Irish, but I'd have to ask my grandmother." Meanwhile, people in the same generation who are chronically unemployed due to a refusal to retrain, for example, know the exact origins of their ancestors and will bark about their ethnic superiority all day. Its as if ethnic pride comes from having nothing else to feel proud about. |
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Jamie (K)
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| #37 (permalink) Mon Sep 24, 2007 15:17 pm Is this fair? |
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| Jamie (K) wrote: |
| Ralf wrote: |
| Jamie, there is some truth in what you said and yet there isn't. |
Well, it's only not true if someone chooses to misread it as a generalized statement about ALL immigrants, which is what Westerners on this site tend to do when I make a point. |
When writing this I had your comment
| Jamie (K) wrote: |
| Oh, think again! I meet plenty of people every day who DID want to desert their roots! My classes are full of them! |
This was also a based on a somewhat diliberate misreading of my statement implying that noone would leave his home if he didn't have to.
But I totally agree with you, there are certain degrees of homesickness, but you still wouldn't want to go back. All you do is maintain some kind of nostalgic attitude towards whatever you see as your heritage; first or third generation alike. I'm not too sure about
| Jamie (K) wrote: |
| The "Irish" will have their own social clubs that involve mostly drinking and bragging about the superiority of the Irish. |
, but I'm sure you could tell a few tales about those clubs as well (please don't read this as an encouragement). In my previous life I would have considered "Irish Superioity" an oxymoron. "German Superiority" rings dismal bells, though.
| Jamie (K) wrote: |
| And that leads up to another point. You only seem to find this disembodied, distorted ethnic pride, and the conviction that a nationality is superior, among people who are not superior.[...]Its as if ethnic pride comes from having nothing else to feel proud about. |
Jamie, this is the most assumable and accosting comment of yours I've ever read. I'm saying this sans irony - to me this is what determines grace and appeal of a person.
Could you distinguish the American mind from lets say the Polish then?
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| #38 (permalink) Mon Sep 24, 2007 15:44 pm Is this fair? |
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| Ralf wrote: |
| Jamie (K) wrote: |
| And that leads up to another point. You only seem to find this disembodied, distorted ethnic pride, and the conviction that a nationality is superior, among people who are not superior.[...]Its as if ethnic pride comes from having nothing else to feel proud about. |
Jamie, this is the most assumable and accosting comment of yours I've ever read. I'm saying this sans irony - to me this is what determines grace and appeal of a person. |
If you'd run into these people, you'd know what I'm talking about. They claim to be of a certain nationality, but they're not. They don't develop anything in their lives to be proud of, so they decide to be proud of something they're not, which is Polish, Irish, Czech, Italian, whatever. I'm not talking about people who really COME from those countries and are proud of their origins. I'm talking about people who DON'T come from those countries, have virtually no knowledge of those countries, have never been able to speak the languages of those countries, can't pronounce the names of those countries' foods correctly, but nonetheless claim those countries as their bogus homelands and never let you forget about it.
| Ralf wrote: |
| Could you distinguish the American mind from lets say the Polish then? |
In this case, I wasn't talking about Polish people, but about Americans who think they're Polish and don't know they're not Polish, because they don't know anything about Poland. |
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Jamie (K)
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| #39 (permalink) Mon Sep 24, 2007 19:29 pm Is this fair? |
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| Jamie (K) wrote: |
| In this case, I wasn't talking about Polish people, but about Americans who think they're Polish and don't know they're not Polish, because they don't know anything about Poland. |
Hi Ralf
This is a pretty common phenomenon in the US. You might meet an American on the street, and in the course of the conversation, you might be told "I'm Italian" (for example) -- even though the person and his/her parents and grandparents were all born in the US. I would agree with Jamie that this tends to happen more often with people of certain national roots, but I think most of us do it to one degree or another. Most Americans are simply aware that their family roots can be traced back to a country other than the US. We are a nation of immigrants.
An American friend of mine met a German man who was here in the US on a three-year job assignment. They fell in love and got married not long before his assignment ended, and then they both went to Germany. After she arrived in Germany, my friend laughingly told me that it was quite an adjustment for her to suddenly have to say "I'm American" rather than "I'm Italian". 
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Yankee
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| #40 (permalink) Mon Sep 24, 2007 22:33 pm Is this fair? |
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| Yankee wrote: |
| Jamie (K) wrote: |
| In this case, I wasn't talking about Polish people, but about Americans who think they're Polish and don't know they're not Polish, because they don't know anything about Poland. |
Hi Ralf
This is a pretty common phenomenon in the US. You might meet an American on the street, and in the course of the conversation, you might be told "I'm Italian" (for example) -- even though the person and his/her parents and grandparents were all born in the US. I would agree with Jamie that this tends to happen more often with people of certain national roots, but I think most of us do it to one degree or another. Most Americans are simply aware that their family roots can be traced back to a country other than the US. We are a nation of immigrants.
An American friend of mine met a German man who was here in the US on a three-year job assignment. They fell in love and got married not long before his assignment ended, and then they both went to Germany. After she arrived in Germany, my friend laughingly told me that it was quite an adjustment for her to suddenly have to say "I'm American" rather than "I'm Italian".
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Hi Ami,
I know what you mean. There were a few times in the US that someone told me "I'm German-Irish, too". One guy in Texas had to show me his passport because I couldn't figure out what his surname was. It turned out to be "Grauman" 
How do you feel about foreigners in your country sealing themselves off from the English language?
Do you think those people have a right to claim the American citizenship?
Should there be an official language in America so that people can be forced to adopt it? As far as I know there is an exame you can take to gain a certificate of citizenship, isn't there?
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| #41 (permalink) Tue Sep 25, 2007 1:00 am Is this fair? |
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Hi Ralf
| Ralf wrote: |
| How do you feel about foreigners in your country sealing themselves off from the English language? |
People who would purposely do that only hurt themselves and ensure their own non-integration. To me, immigrants to the US who would purposely seal themselves off from the English language would be exhibiting an act of hostility toward the USA. They would plainly be rejecting a very fundamental aspect of the US.
| Ralf wrote: |
| Do you think those people have a right to claim the American citizenship? |
No.
| Ralf wrote: |
| Should there be an official language in America so that people can be forced to adopt it? |
Yes, American English. 
| Ralf wrote: |
| As far as I know there is an exame you can take to gain a certificate of citizenship, isn't there? |
Yes, there is, but first you have to apply for citizenship. You can't simply decide one day to take an exam in order to become a US citizen. The exam is just one part of the process.
You only need to look at our northern cousins to see how divisive separate languages can be. Quebec has been trying to split from Canada (become an independent country) for quite some time now, and I firmly believe that language has quite a lot to do with that.
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Yankee
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| #42 (permalink) Tue Sep 25, 2007 14:02 pm Is this fair? |
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Ralf
What do you mean ,once You've experienced good lifestyle ? Do you think one can't make good living in Georgia ?I make very good living in here and I'm very happy and I would never agreed for all the money in the world to leave my homeland and live in the Country which I don't like and I'm sure I'm not welcomed...
Well if We're talking about my integration to any foreighn Countries
For me Georgia is the best Country in The world,I've been to some Countries ,I couldn't stay there more than 2-3 month..so If you think every Georgian would like to live in Ireland,US or anywhere else,this is not really true..but many Georgians 1 of 5 Millions have left this Country to make better living in the other Countries..
I'm sure there will be no China towns ever in Georgia.. I wouldn't like someone thought ,I'm a nacist or I hate chinese ,I just want no Chinese,Irish ,US or especially Russian towns here
Everyone is welcomed , but no foreighn towns 
I can't understand this question : "How would you put integration in motion?"
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| #43 (permalink) Tue Sep 25, 2007 18:59 pm Is this fair? |
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| Che Gevara wrote: |
Ralf
What do you mean ,once You've experienced good lifestyle ? Do you think one can't make good living in Georgia ?I make very good living in here and I'm very happy and I would never agreed for all the money in the world to leave my homeland and live in the Country which I don't like and I'm sure I'm not welcomed...
Well if We're talking about my integration to any foreighn Countries
For me Georgia is the best Country in The world,I've been to some Countries ,I couldn't stay there more than 2-3 month..so If you think every Georgian would like to live in Ireland,US or anywhere else,this is not really true..but many Georgians 1 of 5 Millions have left this Country to make better living in the other Countries..
I'm sure there will be no China towns ever in Georgia.. I wouldn't like someone thought ,I'm a nacist or I hate chinese ,I just want no Chinese,Irish ,US or especially Russian towns here
Everyone is welcomed , but no foreighn towns
I can't understand this question : "How would you put integration in motion?" |
I never meant to hurt your national pride, I was simply referring to those who emigrate to improve their living conditions, that's all.
My question meant as much as "Can you think of a way to realise integration?"
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| #44 (permalink) Wed Sep 26, 2007 7:03 am Is this fair? |
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| Quote: |
| I'm sure there will be no China towns ever in Georgia.. I wouldn't like someone thought ,I'm a nacist or I hate chinese ,I just want no Chinese,Irish ,US or especially Russian towns here. Everyone is welcomed , but no foreighn towns |
Yeah, you're right. You sound like one (Nacist). I just feel that you haven't opened your mind enough but I respect your national pride and solidarity.
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Nicholas
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| #45 (permalink) Wed Sep 26, 2007 11:05 am Is this fair? |
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| Nicholas wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I'm sure there will be no China towns ever in Georgia.. I wouldn't like someone thought ,I'm a nacist or I hate chinese ,I just want no Chinese,Irish ,US or especially Russian towns here. Everyone is welcomed , but no foreighn towns |
Yeah, you're right. You sound like one (Nacist). I just feel that you haven't opened your mind enough but I respect your national pride and solidarity. |
I agree that he sounds like a Nazi (there's no such word as "Nacist" in English), but I think a better word is "jingoist", since he's not calling for the mass extermination of foreigners.
His attitude reminds me of how people in the Czech Republic used to think in the early 1990s (and probably still today). A lot of Vietnamese people were living in that country, many of them making a living as traders in the town marketplaces. I had a good image of these people, because in the US the Vietnamese have a reputation for being polite, honest, hardworking people. They are usually model citizens. Imagine my surprise, though, when I heard Czech people saying that the Vietnamese were lazy swindlers. I'd never seen any indication of that, but it seemed to be the universal opinion in the Czech town where I lived. After I'd lived there for a couple of years, though, I realized that most Czech people commonly think of almost all foreigners as lazy swindlers, even if they see them working hard and never have a problem with them. I can say one thing, though: In business the Vietnamese gave much better customer service than the Czechs. |
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