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 Fri Sep 28, 2007 14:28 pm A sentence pattern with negative meaning confuses me |
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I think it's emphasis.
<It is~that~>Putting emphasis on where it lies after is.
I met Michael in the park last night.
It was I that met Michael in the park last night. (that= and I)
It was Michael that I met in the park last night. (that= and Michael)
It was in the park that I met Michael last night. (that= where)
It was last night that I met Michael in the park. (that= when) |
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edison_chen_e_c
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| Fri Sep 28, 2007 17:34 pm A sentence pattern with negative meaning confuses me |
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| edison_chen_e_c wrote: | I think it's emphasis.
<It is~that~>Putting emphasis on where it lies after is.
I met Michael in the park last night.
It was I that met Michael in the park last night. (that= and I)
It was Michael that I met in the park last night. (that= and Michael)
It was in the park that I met Michael last night. (that= where)
It was last night that I met Michael in the park. (that= when) |
thank you for your response. I get hazed logically rather than grammatically. The unemphatic form of that sentence should be: a wise man never makes mistakes, but it has a reverse meaning to ' even a wise man makes mistakes', doesn't it?
I mean, after this sentence was translated by some of my fellows into my native language ,Chinese, it took on such a meaning: 'a man may make mistakes no matter how wise he is', quite different from its literal meaning to my understanding: a wise man never makes mistakes. |
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Iwanna
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| Sat Sep 29, 2007 0:33 am A sentence pattern with negative meaning confuses me |
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It is a wise man that never makes mistakes = only a very wise man never makes mistakes.
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Mister Micawber
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| Sat Sep 29, 2007 3:51 am A sentence pattern with negative meaning confuses me |
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| Mister Micawber wrote: | .
It is a wise man that never makes mistakes = only a very wise man never makes mistakes.
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I'm very glad that your answer is consistent with my understanding.
I got into an argument with my fellows about it. They said this sentence was quoted from an article on translation written by an authoritative Chinese translator, who advices that a direct and literal translation would sometimes lead to misunderstanding, and this sentence is taken as an example for his argument in his article. Other examples are recommended to understand in the same way, that is to say, this is an exceptional senterce pattern which is used in some proverbs:
It is a good horse that never stumbles.
It is a long lane that has no turning. |
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Iwanna
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| Sat Sep 29, 2007 6:18 am A sentence pattern with negative meaning confuses me |
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What emphasized is the determined.
So the meaning of your sentence is like what Mr. MM said. Sometimes the translation would be some kind of mistake since it's a bridge between two languages, and I guess the main reason for that is the below:
In chinese, the word "only" has negative meanings. <ex>:
I went to meet my friends only to see my foes.
I went to meet my friends but to see my foes.
And sometimes there will be some different explanations when translating. |
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edison_chen_e_c
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| Sat Sep 29, 2007 7:21 am A sentence pattern with negative meaning confuses me |
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| edison_chen_e_c wrote: | What emphasized is the determined.
So the meaning of your sentence is like what Mr. MM said. Sometimes the translation would be some kind of mistake since it's a bridge between two languages, and I guess the main reason for that is the below:
In chinese, the word "only" has negative meanings. <ex>:
I went to meet my friends only to see my foes.
I went to meet my friends but to see my foes.
And sometimes there will be some different explanations when translating. |
I have googled for it, and found that the translating of this sentence pattern in this way was originally dopted by Taiwanese:
1 It is a wise man that never makes mistakes---圣人也会犯错
2 It is a good horse that never stumbles.---好马也有失蹄时
3 It is a long lane that has no turning.---路必有弯
now I translate them back into English, they would mean quite differently:
1 Even a wise man makes mistakes sometimes. (don't worry too much about our mistakes)
2 Even a good horse stumbles sometimes. (don't be afaid of our failures in life)
3 Any lane might have turnings. (the road of life isn't always straight)
In their opinion, the words 'never'and no' just have a partial negative in this sentence pattern, how confusing it is! I don't think this is the matter of language gap, there must be some basis, true or false. |
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Iwanna
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| Sat Sep 29, 2007 8:17 am A sentence pattern with negative meaning confuses me |
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I think I need to clarify my feeling about this:
The meaning of the sentence is as I first suggested-- It is a wise man that never makes mistakes = only a very wise man never makes mistakes-- however, the thrust and intention of the proverb is as it has been interpreted (Even a wise man can make mistakes). In other words, the literal meaning is not the implication. So I would not slight the translator.
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| Sat Sep 29, 2007 9:06 am A sentence pattern with negative meaning confuses me |
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It is a wise man that never makes mistakes = Only a very wise man never makes mistakes.
It is a wise man that never makes mistakes = Even a wise man makes mistakes sometimes. <?????>
Maybe in Taiwan you can regard it as the second sentence yet in the States and with the native speakers perhaps not. |
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edison_chen_e_c
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| Sat Sep 29, 2007 10:56 am A sentence pattern with negative meaning confuses me |
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| Mister Micawber wrote: | .
I think I need to clarify my feeling about this:
The meaning of the sentence is as I first suggested-- It is a wise man that never makes mistakes = only a very wise man never makes mistakes-- however, the thrust and intention of the proverb is as it has been interpreted (Even a wise man can make mistakes). In other words, the literal meaning is not the implication. So I would not slight the translator.
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I agree with you.
As a precise translator, he will always try to abide by the real meaning in the original-language. so, I suppose he must have based upon some reasons for the translating of this sentence, but what are they?
Althouh languages are different, logic is universal. I want to know whether a native english-speaker accepts the interpretation: It is a wise man that never makes mistakes = Even a very wise man can make mistakes, obviously there is a logical gap between them. If they cannot accept, no doubt the Chinese translator made a mistake, after all, even a wise man can make mistakes.  |
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Iwanna
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| Sat Sep 29, 2007 11:27 am A sentence pattern with negative meaning confuses me |
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Yes, that was what I wanted to say. At the beginning of the thread I thought you were querying the literal meaning, so I supplied it. But then I realized that you were more concerned with what it implied, so I broadened my interpretation.
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Mister Micawber
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| Sat Sep 29, 2007 13:24 pm A sentence pattern with negative meaning confuses me |
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| Mister Micawber wrote: | .
Yes, that was what I wanted to say. At the beginning of the thread I thought you were querying the literal meaning, so I supplied it. But then I realized that you were more concerned with what it implied, so I broadened my interpretation.
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Oh, finally I found out the explanation about this elusive usage, just as you said previously, only in some proverbs could it be interpreted this way:
PT It is a good horse that never stumbles.
MT1 A good horse never stumbles.
MT2 The horse that never stumbles is so good that such horses do not exist.
The second version, proposed by Komissārov as indispensable so that the Russian reader can understand correctly, does not honor Komissārov's opinion of the Russian reader, who is obviously smarter than Komissārov thinks. Besides, as all specifying translations, it disambiguates the prototext. preventing interpretations that are different from the one imposed by the translator. The same is true for this other example:
PT It is an ill wind that blows nobody good.
MT1 Ill wind is good for no one.
MT2 A wind being good for no one is so bad that there is no such a wind.
But the solution preferred by Komissārov is the use of a Russian proverb, namely:
Konī o chetyryokh nogakh i to spotykaetsja
(Even a four-legged horse stumbles.)
Superfluous to be repeated that, as equivalence, the latter translation eliminates nearly every connotation of the text as translated text, running the risk of being perceived as an original, i.e. as a falsification.
Here is the link:www.logos.it/pls/dictionary/linguistic_resources.cap_3_25?lang=en |
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Iwanna
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| Sat Sep 29, 2007 14:12 pm A sentence pattern with negative meaning confuses me |
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Very interesting, Iwanna-- thanks.
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Iwanna
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