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 Tue Oct 23, 2007 13:38 pm Teaching/learning pronunciation |
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Hi Ralf,
People don't ask me if I am not a native speaker, they usually initially assume I am a native speaker. My performance in spoken English can be described as follows following two IELTS Speaking tests:
Band 9
Fluency and coherence
Speaks fluently with only rare repetition or self-correction; any hesitation is content-related rather than to find words or grammar. Speaks coherently with fully appropriate cohesive features. Develops topics fully and appropriately.
Lexical resource
Uses vocabulary with full flexibility and precision in all topics. Uses idiomatic language naturally and appropriately.
Grammatical range and accuracy
Uses a full range of structures naturally and appropriately. Produces consistently accurate structures apart from 'slips' characteristic of native speaker speech.
Pronunciation (Band 8 is the highest mark awarded for pronunciation under the marking scheme)
Is easy to understand throughout, with L1 accent having minimal effect on intelligibility. Uses a wide range of phonological features to convey meaning effectively.
If the Examiners' assessment is anything to go by then I would probably not face many problems communicating orally in English.
EU |
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Englishuser
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| Tue Oct 23, 2007 13:50 pm Teaching/learning pronunciation |
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Ralf wrote:
| Quote: | | To me it seems quite impossible that a learner can imbibe any genuine accent (even an RP accent) without practicing it in real-life situations. |
I think I have made it clear that in order to acquire an accent you need to practise speaking with that accent. It should go without saying that you cannot learn to speak with a specific accent without listening to people with that accent, but this could certainly be done by means other than face-to-face interaction. How do you define "genuine" anyway? How is an artificial aristocratic English English accent different from a genuine one?
EU |
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Englishuser
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| Tue Oct 23, 2007 13:50 pm Teaching/learning pronunciation |
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| Englishuser wrote: | If the Examiners' assessment is anything to go by then I would probably not face many problems communicating orally in English.
EU |
As I told you. Well done!
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Ralf
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| Tue Oct 23, 2007 13:56 pm Teaching/learning pronunciation |
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| Englishuser wrote: | How do you define "genuine" anyway? How is an artificial aristocratic English English accent different from a genuine one?
EU |
Hi EU,
To me, genuine accents represent what people speak once you leave the library. If you i.e. take a conservative RP accent, you'd have to rick your neck looking for it anywhere. At least this is what I was told by my (English) linguistics professor. I've never heard one myself, but maybe you could provide us with a sample on KanTalk.com?
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Ralf
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Conchita
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| Tue Oct 23, 2007 17:18 pm Teaching/learning pronunciation |
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Hi,
I would love to provide you with a sample, but unfortunately I haven't got a microphone right at the moment so my own articulatory skill won't be of much use as far as our discussion is concerned. I would have to agree with you, Ralf, and your linguistics professor that U-RP (upper-crust RP) is a very rare accent. I would be interested in knowing how often Alan gets to talk to native speakers of U-RP.
As for myself, I find I am in a very privileged position indeed since I get to interact with people from all parts of the UK on a daily basis, and occasionally I am lucky enough to get to speak to people from other countries.
As so often in these matters, I turn to Professor John Wells's writings in an attempt to shed some further light on this discussion about U-RP. Professor Wells writes:
| Quote: | | The accent popularly associated with, say, a dowager duchess is not quite the same as mainstream RP. Even when we discount the special voice quality and manner of delivery there are other differences. |
| Quote: | | Furthermore, they (U-RP accents) share one important social characteristic: they are, in the narrow sense, upper-class. They are not middle-class. |
Some features typical of U-RP include (according to Wells):
* An opening-diphthong realisation of the TRAP vowel.
* The wide diphthongs of PRICE and MOUTH have a relatively front starting-point.
* Both the STRUT and (broad-A) BATH vowels are back.
* The centring diphthongs of NEAR, SQUARE and CURE have a very open second element when in free position (this sounds rather affected to some ears in my experience and is typical of the duchess stereotype, for example).
* /I/ is preferred over a schwa-like sound when there is variability within the RP accent e.g. carel[I]ssn[I]s.
* The happY vowel is strikingly open, often more so than the vowel in 'bit'.
* The tapped /r/ is typical of some forms of U-RP.
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Englishuser
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Ralf
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| Tue Oct 23, 2007 18:33 pm Teaching/learning pronunciation |
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Hi,
John Wells is brilliant but is talking with tongue in cheek when he says what you quote. As for you EU, well I think you should get out more and stop worrying about the way people speak.
Alan
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| Tue Oct 23, 2007 20:00 pm Teaching/learning pronunciation |
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Hi Ralf,
Is it common for English people to make fun of Irish accents? Many Brits I have discussed Irish English with tell me they think Irish accents are beautiful. One even hoped her brother (who is English) would acquire an Irish lilt as he studies in Dublin!
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Englishuser
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| Tue Oct 23, 2007 20:05 pm Teaching/learning pronunciation |
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Hi Alan,
I think it is perfectly acceptable for a descriptive phonetician such as John Wells to write about how the language is spoken. You still haven't told me why the voice quality associated with U-RP annoys you.
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Englishuser
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| Tue Oct 23, 2007 20:25 pm Teaching/learning pronunciation |
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| Englishuser wrote: | why the voice quality associated with U-RP annoys you.
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Hi EU,
I don't quite get your obsession with "upper-crust RP". I've tried to pronounce the sounds you suggested in your earlier comment, and I thought that I sounded like some toffee-nosed knut. The problem with this type of accent is that less than 1 per cent of RP speakers still speak it Those people are all between 70 an 100. And when you try to sound like them, you sound like an impersonated satire of an obsolete ideal. In other words, no one likes you since the immediate assumption is that you are trying to display an image of superiority. You may get compliments as in "great accent!" or "I can’t believe that you're German!", but that's just to please you.
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| Tue Oct 23, 2007 20:35 pm Teaching/learning pronunciation |
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| Englishuser wrote: | Hi Ralf,
Is it common for English people to make fun of Irish accents? Many Brits I have discussed Irish English with tell me they think Irish accents are beautiful. One even hoped her brother (who is English) would acquire an Irish lilt as he studies in Dublin!
EU |
Hi again,
Ireland has many accents. People from Russia and Hungary have told me that they can vaguely distinguish between different areas, but in Ireland that's quite possible. You can probably identify 3 main accents - Dublin and its neighbouring counties, Ulster (Northern Ireland) and so-called "Bog Irish". That's the rest of the country. But you also find a great many different accents within those areas. I could probably tell you from which area of Dublin a speaker comes from.
People say that Irish accents sound soft and melodic, but there are phonologic idiosyncrasies as in final obstruent devoicing and a somewhat innate inability to pronounce "th"-sounds which make for a target of mocking.
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stew.t.
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| Tue Oct 23, 2007 21:20 pm Teaching/learning pronunciation |
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Hi EU,
Many voices and accents annoy me - it very much depends on the voice and the person who's speaking. My question to you and I have asked it several times is why you are so hung up on this so-called U R P. Is it the sound, the associations with it, the people who use it or what? You obviously set great store by it and I wonder why. You have broadcast your assessments relative to your accent and been asked to provide an example. I really can't believe that someone so fascinated with accents as you clearly are, hasn't got a microphone. Come on, don't be bashful.
Alan
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| Is it possible to reach a good command of English without studying hard? | Malaysian children conversing in English. |
. You don't sound too Irish to me (I was even a bit disappointed 
). Do you think you've lost your Irish lilt a bit or is it just me?
) who make fun of your accent all the time probably made me adapt my accent. The other day I made a recording with Torsten and I was amazed when listening to myself afterwards. It was like listening to someone who desperately tries to sound intelligible but doesn't quite succeed 