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 Tue Oct 23, 2007 23:26 pm Teaching/learning pronunciation |
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Hi Alan,
| Quote: | | My question to you and I have asked it several times is why you are so hung up on this so-called U R P. Is it the sound, the associations with it, the people who use it or what? |
I shall now try to address your question to the best of my ability although it is a very difficult one. I believe my fascination with U-RP is linked to all those things you mentioned. I like the way U-RP sounds, that is, I find that voice quality and some of its phonological characteristics aesthetically pleasant. I think each one of us associates U-RP with quite a few things such as the accent sounding beautiful and correct. Note that I am not the only one who feels this way: there are many others.
| Quote: | | I really can't believe that someone so fascinated with accents as you clearly are,hasn't got a microphone. |
Yes, I can indeed record my voice (and I do so quite often). The problem is that I don't know how to post any of my voice clips online since I use a recorder that is not linked to my computer. I would very much like to speak to you some day, Alan. I am sure there would be plenty of interesting things that the two of us could discuss.
EU |
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Englishuser
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| Tue Oct 23, 2007 23:32 pm Teaching/learning pronunciation |
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Hi think when it comes to discussing accents, pronunciation and phonetics there are a number of aspects to consider:
a) Awareness
Are you aware of your own accent? Can you distinguish between different accents when you listen to other people speak? Are you aware of the differences between standard versions of spoken English and your own accent?
b) Motivation to improve your pronunciation
Do you actually want to improve your pronunciation? I sometimes hear people speak very fluent English but they have such a thick accent that it's difficult to follow them. It seems to me that they are quite happy with the way the speak English. Some of them are high profile politicians who have a lot of influence on many people and there obviously is no need for them to change their accent.
c) Self-confidence
As mentioned above, there are people who have a 'horrible' accent but they don't give a damn and their ego is big enough to compensate any phonetic deficiency. On the other hand, there are people whose spoken English is impeccable and yet they are so afraid of 'making a mistake' and being identified as a foreigner.
So, in addition to discussing how to learn (I don't think you can "teach pronunciation") we should also talk about what influence your pronunciation and accent has on your level of happiness and success.
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Torsten
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| Wed Oct 24, 2007 9:40 am Teaching/learning pronunciation |
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Hi EU
Hate to disagree with Ralf but his comment on the "parody or echo" of the real accent could be an exaggeration. True it may be such that you end up sounding false. However it is possibly without a forced accent to sound natural.
I have a German friend, although I have not seen him for sometime, sounds more Northern than me.
Also I will pick up on the awareness point made by Torsten.
In that many people ignore training the ear, which is as important as anything else. If you have an ear for accents then you are half way there. Someone who can not hear the difference between variations of accent, will not have a chance to pick up an authentic accent.
cheers stew.t.
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| Wed Oct 24, 2007 10:25 am Teaching/learning pronunciation |
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Hi EU,
I'd like you to expand on this:
| Quote: | | might place you for a native speaker who went to public school |
This sounds a bit 1930ish to me!
Alan
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| Wed Oct 24, 2007 10:27 am Teaching/learning pronunciation |
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| Englishuser wrote: | | I think each one of us associates U-RP with quite a few things such as the accent sounding beautiful and correct. Note that I am not the only one who feels this way: there are many others. |
Hi EU,
Do the people who think that the accent you keep mentioning sounds correct, feel that any accent that is slightly different to your model, sounds incorrect? How can any accent spoken by a native speaker sound 'more correct' than another? Also, whom do you mean when you say "each one of us associates..."?
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Torsten
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| Wed Oct 24, 2007 10:57 am Teaching/learning pronunciation |
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Hi Torsten,
What I mean is that most native speakers of British English I have discussed accents with seem to think that RP is some kind of standard that is more "educated" or "proper" than any regional accent. Most native speakers I interact with drop their t's. Another such feature is h-dropping.
I don't think I can make this any more clear than I already have. People associate innovative pronunciations with lazyness. I have even heard someone commenting on General American as being rather "lazy" since the accent in question doesn't have as many diphthongs as RP has.
With "each one of us" I meant to refer to people with a viable knowledge of English and a certain familiarity with spoken British English; all people who have posted replies in this thread undoubtedly fall into this category.
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Englishuser
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| Wed Oct 24, 2007 12:03 pm Teaching/learning pronunciation |
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Hi Alan,
The form of U-RP that I refer to is certainly no longer acquired by those who go to public school, but the general public is unlikely to be aware of this. If you meet someone in their 20s who sounds just like a duchess (and I am thinking 1930, not 2007) then where would you place him or her geographically?
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Englishuser
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| Wed Oct 24, 2007 18:01 pm Teaching/learning pronunciation |
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| Englishuser wrote: | Hi Torsten,
What I mean is that most native speakers of British English I have discussed accents with seem to think that RP is some kind of standard that is more "educated" or "proper" than any regional accent. Most native speakers I interact with drop their t's. Another such feature is h-dropping. |
Hi EU,
Do you mean that the "RP accent" is more educated and proper than other accents or that the people speaking RP are more educated and "proper" than others? Also, what about Irish or Australian accents -- where do they rank on the 'education and properness scale'? Why is t-, h- and r-dropping not lazy while "General American" is? Also, what exactly is "Gerneral American"?
| Englishuser wrote: | | I don't think I can make this any more clear than I already have. People associate innovative pronunciations with lazyness. |
You will probably agree that language is constantly changing and so is the pronunciation that linguists define as "standard". Could you please elaborate on the term "innovative pronunciations". To me, the word 'innovative' indicates that something is progressive and modern rather than lazy.
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Torsten
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| Wed Oct 24, 2007 18:14 pm Teaching/learning pronunciation |
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What on earth do you mean 'sounds like a duchess'? What planet do you live on, EU? I've met two duchesses, one spoke with a French accent (Duchess of Bedford) and the other had a marked northern English accent (Duchess of Manchester).
Alan
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| Wed Oct 24, 2007 22:25 pm Teaching/learning pronunciation |
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| Englishuser wrote: | I don't think I can make this any more clear than I already have. People associate innovative pronunciations with lazyness. I have even heard someone commenting on General American as being rather "lazy" since the accent in question doesn't have as many diphthongs as RP has.
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Hi EU,
Who are those people who associate your so-called "innovative accents with laziness"? What turn of phrase!
It is quite obvious that conservative RP speakers represent your ideal of proper pronunciation. Problem is, this accent represents a class distinction more than anything else. A class you will never belong to. Even your Duchess would not feel entirely attracted to you for reasons of class superiority. And since you don't seem to belong to this class, your (as authentic as your RP may sound) accent may induce those few thousand speakers to tolerate you, but you will never be accepted in their circles.
And think of the prevailing rest of speakers of English. Who in his right mind would consider an American "lazy" only because he taps his "t"s? That's the kind of assumption probably everybody involved in this discussion has of an unduly pronounced RP accent; it's excessively sophisticated.
Stew mentioned a German friend who sounds more northern English than he does. As far as the guys accent goes, he probably likes and respects him for what he represents in terms of genuine performance. A performance that can be found in real places with regular people; something that I described as "genuine" earlier. Conservative RP is restricted to a certain league of chosen people and would-be affiliates.
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| Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:25 am Teaching/learning pronunciation |
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Hi Torsten,
| Quote: | | Do you mean that the "RP accent" is more educated and proper than other accents or that the people speaking RP are more educated and "proper" than others? |
I mean that to the minds of most UK residents an RP speaker tends to sound rather educated and well-spoken. This has nothing whatsoever to do with whether this perception actually holds true. Speaking with a certain accent does not necessarily correspond to your level of education, but certainly it still is the case that there are working class accents which are different from middle class accents in the UK.
| Quote: | | Also, what about Irish or Australian accents -- where do they rank on the 'education and properness scale'? |
Irish and Australian accents are foreign accents to the ears of a majority of Britons. People tend to think of them as regional accents more than anything else. There are slight differences between 'educated' and 'less educated' Australian English, but these differences are by no means as marked as they are in the UK.
| Quote: | | Why is t-, h- and r-dropping not lazy while "General American" is? |
You'd need to ask the person I discussed the matter with. I personally think of General American as a proper accent.
| Quote: | | Also, what exactly is "Gerneral American"? |
I think Jamie has answered your question in other threads already.
| Quote: | | You will probably agree that language is constantly changing and so is the pronunciation that linguists define as "standard". Could you please elaborate on the term "innovative pronunciations". To me, the word 'innovative' indicates that something is progressive and modern rather than lazy. |
Older speakers and other speakers who don't pronounce the same way as "innovative speakers" often frown upon new pronunciations. Obviously these pronunciations sometimes replace earlier standard pronunciations.
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Englishuser
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| Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:30 am Teaching/learning pronunciation |
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Hi Alan,
It seems like I shall have to turn to Professor John Wells's writings once more:
| Quote: | | The accent popularly associated with, say, a dowager duchess is not quite the same as mainstream RP. Even when we discount the special voice quality and manner of delivery there are other differences. |
| Quote: | | Furthermore, they (U-RP accents) share one important social characteristic: they are, in the narrow sense, upper-class. They are not middle-class. |
I wrote:
| Quote: | | (and I am thinking 1930, not 2007) |
Do you think both John Wells and I live on some other planet?
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Englishuser
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| Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:36 am Teaching/learning pronunciation |
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Hi Ralf,
Have you ignored my earlier comments?
I wrote:
| Quote: | | In general, young people in the UK are relatively unaware of what U-RP is. I have myself played voice clips featuring U-RP, and most people seem to think the U-RP speakers speak with a standard accent. Only when I try to produce those sounds in isolation in order to demonstrate the differences between U-RP and mainstream-RP people notice that the two accents are somewhat different. |
A U-RP accent is not an issue to most speakers of English. People don't care what accent you have, and people certainly don't mind if you pronounce English as speakers of U-RP do. However perfect your accent may be, you are likely to tell people about your foreign origin at some point. It is assumed that people will understand that foreigners learn all kinds of accents depending on where, when and how they were learning English.
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Englishuser
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| Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:21 pm Teaching/learning pronunciation |
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Hi EU,
J W is talking, as I said, with tongue in cheek. What fascinates me is from what basis you are talking. You make reference to 'people this and that' but from which standpoint? Is it from a Finnish point of view, a world view or are you currently breezing about the UK?
Alan
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