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 Thu Oct 25, 2007 15:32 pm Teaching/learning pronunciation |
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Hi Alan,
| Quote: | | J W is talking, as I said, with tongue in cheek. |
What he writes seems to me like an account of what the accent sounded like back in the 1980s.
| Quote: | | You make reference to 'people this and that' but from which standpoint? Is it from a Finnish point of view, a world view or are you currently breezing about the UK? |
Since I live in the UK at the moment and mainly interact with British speakers of English I mostly talk about how UK residents feel about different British English accents.
EU |
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Englishuser
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| Thu Oct 25, 2007 15:44 pm Teaching/learning pronunciation |
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Hi Ralf,
| Quote: | | Quote: | Englishuser wrote:
I wrote:
In general, young people in the UK are relatively unaware of what U-RP is. I have myself played voice clips featuring U-RP, and most people seem to think the U-RP speakers speak with a standard accent. Only when I try to produce those sounds in isolation in order to demonstrate the differences between U-RP and mainstream-RP people notice that the two accents are somewhat different. |
I never doubted that. |
| Quote: | | With all due respect, it seems as if you indeed have not much contact to planet earth. I have already stated my opinion about that |
So you still claim that people mind if you speak U-RP (or near-U-RP)? How can people possibly mind someone speaking with an accent they hardly recognise?
| Quote: | | I hope it wasn't sophistication that made you ignore my comment. |
Your comment is largely irrelevant since people don't care what your accent is as long as they can understand you.
| Quote: | | Again, who are those people who consider "innovative accents" lazy? |
Average native English speakers, I should think. Correct me if I am wrong.
EU |
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Englishuser
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| Thu Oct 25, 2007 16:28 pm Teaching/learning pronunciation |
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| Englishuser wrote: | So you still claim that people mind if you speak U-RP (or near-U-RP)? How can people possibly mind someone speaking with an accent they hardly recognise?
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Of course I do. Earth-bound people mind certain things which they don't recognise (as in conservative RP), because they think that these are/sound phoney or like a desperate attempt to belong to a different class. We're talking about a dead accent here, and I prefer things alive.
This is also true for semantics. Here, you can be intelligible without desperately trying to use rarely or no longer used high-register words of ancient greek origin.
| Quote: | | Again, who are those people who consider "innovative accents" lazy? |
| Englishuser wrote: | | Average native English speakers, I should think. Correct me if I am wrong. |
If average native speakers in your parallel universe should consider American accents and all other accents "lazy", then I can consider myself lucky to live in a different one.
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| Thu Oct 25, 2007 17:51 pm Teaching/learning pronunciation |
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Hi Ralf,
Surely someone who speaks U-RP or near-U-RP will be understood? Surely these people can form relationships of a friendly nature with people from all classes?
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Englishuser
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| Thu Oct 25, 2007 17:55 pm Teaching/learning pronunciation |
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What ho!
Although I may not agree with all that EU says, why can we not accept the aim/ambition to try to speak with a certain accent?
Are we being prejudice because of certain negative associations with the chosen accent?
Shouldn´t we be supportive of anyone who is motivated to push their language acquisition, instead of “slamming” them.
Makes a change to the instant “Nescafe” English attitude of certain English students.
Btw
There could be considered to be three types of U-RP;
Natural; still constitutes roughly 3 % of the English population, so not a dead but a dying language.
Acquired; which could be the form you pick up from exposure, or lets say voice training.
Forced; which you could consider “phony”.
As for the class thing;
Would this be an issue of the more common trend to soften “working class” accents to “middle class”? Which has incidentally happened to mine.
Some people may have a problem with your accent and some not, but who cares?
Speak how you want as long as you can be understood or adjust your language.
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| Thu Oct 25, 2007 17:55 pm Teaching/learning pronunciation |
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Hi Alan,
You have frequently made the point that you dislike the working class accent of Birmingham. You have told us you speak mainstream RP/BBC English.
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Englishuser
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| Thu Oct 25, 2007 18:17 pm Teaching/learning pronunciation |
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Hi Stew,
| stew.t. wrote: | Natural; still constitutes roughly 3 % of the English population, so not a dead but a dying language.
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That would be 1 in 33. Do you believe that? How many speakers do you know? What's your source?
But I agree with your point stating that RP can be helpful when used as a role model to achieve a better accent.
What I whave been trying to say so far can be put in a nutshell; no one likes a coin that isn't true.
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| Thu Oct 25, 2007 18:28 pm Teaching/learning pronunciation |
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Hi Ralf,
I think stew.t. refers to RP in general i.e. not specifically to U-RP. Mainstream RP/BBC English is a much more common model that U-RP. The major difference between the two is that the former is upper middle class whereas the latter is upper class.
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Englishuser
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| Thu Oct 25, 2007 18:48 pm Teaching/learning pronunciation |
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Hi EU,
From this:
| Quote: | | Mainstream RP/BBC English is a much more common model than U-RP. The major difference between the two is that the former is upper middle class whereas the latter is upper class. |
I am convinced you do live in a bubble!
For the record I didn't use the expression 'working class' with reference to a Birmingham accent - such descriptions like upper/middle/working class are quite meaningless when talking about the way people speak and I can't recall using that vague expression 'BBC English'. You are so obsessed with different accents that you worry me. Is this typical of all Finns? I don't know which part of the UK you are living in but my advice is don't worry too much about all these divisions and sub divisions of accent on which you place such importance. Just enjoy the language written and spoken.
Alan
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| Thu Oct 25, 2007 20:16 pm Teaching/learning pronunciation |
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| Englishuser wrote: | Hi Ralf,
I think stew.t. refers to RP in general i.e. not specifically to U-RP. Mainstream RP/BBC English is a much more common model that U-RP. The major difference between the two is that the former is upper middle class whereas the latter is upper class.
EU |
Hi EU,
I know what Stew meant, and I did mean "standard RP". But I'm afraid Alan is right. The last upper class people who speak your UCRP are either dead already or they will be very soon. Do you (a foreigner) really want to be the last remaining representative of a dying class? Thing is, accents don't distinguish classes anymore. Even you claim to speak RP. Your ideal of a young 1930s Duchess that you can place geographically is a figment of your imagination.
And why speak in a phantom accent anyway? To be ultimately condescending?
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| Thu Oct 25, 2007 23:15 pm Teaching/learning pronunciation |
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Hi Alan,
| Quote: | | that vague expression 'BBC English' |
'BBC English' is not as vague an expression as it may seem. It is actually the expression British phoneticians prefer to use about today's standard English English accent. The time has come to abandon the archaic term 'RP', as one of them pointed out.
| Quote: | | You are so obsessed with different accents that you worry me. |
Perhaps I should tell you that my other goal is to be able to produce all the sounds represented on the IPA chart and on the extended start for atypical speech. I take a keen interest in phonetics and dialectology, and I don't think there is anything wrong with that.
| Quote: | | Is this typical of all Finns? |
The answer to this question is so obvious that I must interpret your question to be rhetorical.
| Quote: | | I don't know which part of the UK you are living in but my advice is don't worry too much about all these divisions and sub divisions of accent on which you place such importance. Just enjoy the language written and spoken. |
This is exactly what I am doing. Is there something wrong with someone wanting to become a linguist or indeed a phonetician or a dialectologist?
EU |
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Englishuser
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| Thu Oct 25, 2007 23:25 pm Teaching/learning pronunciation |
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Hi Ralf,
| Quote: | | Do you (a foreigner) really want to be the last remaining representative of a dying class? |
To be honest with you, I sometimes feel sad when I think about how this wonderful variety of English is about to be disappear.
| Quote: | | Thing is, accents don't distinguish classes anymore. |
Yes, they do. The differences may not be as marked as they were in the past, but they do exist. Anyone who grew up in Britain knows this (and so does anyone who has studied the accents of the British Isles).
| Quote: | | And why speak in a phantom accent anyway? To be ultimately condescending? |
I think it is natural for someone learning a language to want to learn to pronounce that language accurately. A strong foreign accent sometimes impedes communication and reduces clarity, as I am sure you are aware. Now if you are to learn a new tongue, then why not learn the brand of that tongue that you like the most?
EU |
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Englishuser
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| Fri Oct 26, 2007 10:36 am Teaching/learning pronunciation |
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| Englishuser wrote: | Hi Ralf,
| Quote: | | Do you (a foreigner) really want to be the last remaining representative of a dying class? |
To be honest with you, I sometimes feel sad when I think about how this wonderful variety of English is about to be disappear.
| Quote: | | Thing is, accents don't distinguish classes anymore. |
Yes, they do. The differences may not be as marked as they were in the past, but they do exist. Anyone who grew up in Britain knows this (and so does anyone who has studied the accents of the British Isles).
| Quote: | | And why speak in a phantom accent anyway? To be ultimately condescending? |
I think it is natural for someone learning a language to want to learn to pronounce that language accurately. A strong foreign accent sometimes impedes communication and reduces clarity, as I am sure you are aware. Now if you are to learn a new tongue, then why not learn the brand of that tongue that you like the most?
EU |
Hi EU,
Looks like we've been going round in circles full swing. I'll leave you to it then.
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