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 #17 (permalink) Wed Dec 26, 2007 17:22 pm Do we need to believe in God to be happier? |
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| BuddhaGeo wrote: |
| I don't make fun of other peoples' religion. Never did. I might simply point to its silliness but never shall I insult them. |
You did. It's obvious to me that you believe in God. |
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Jamie (K)
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 5334
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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| #18 (permalink) Wed Dec 26, 2007 17:26 pm Do we need to believe in God to be happier? |
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| Could you enlighten which God I believe in then? Or are the Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Satanic, Baha, Ancient-Egyptian, Roman, and Greek God the same? |
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BuddhaGeo
You can meet me at english-test.net
Joined: 21 Dec 2007
Posts: 67
Location: Tbilisi, Georgia
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| #19 (permalink) Wed Dec 26, 2007 17:31 pm Do we need to believe in God to be happier? |
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| BuddhaGeo wrote: |
I'm an atheist, and I don't believe in any sort of God. And I am not suppressing my beliefs. For me, Zeus, your God, Allah, Jupiter, Mars and the Flying Spaghetti Monster are all the same.
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You're talking like that in account of you have different beliefs. You believe that you will be always young and exuberant. And thoughts of inevitable end don't affect (i'd say haunt) you. Once you have come in contact with death, you 99% will believe in God (or you will be one sandwich short of a picnic  )
And about making fun of other people beliefs (no matter how crazy they might sound), is playing with possibilities until they are disproven mad? Noone says there's no such thing as the spagetti monster (and you might face him tonight when you are lying in bed) |
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Lost_Soul
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 15 Sep 2006
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Location: South Park, Colorado, USA
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| #20 (permalink) Wed Dec 26, 2007 17:39 pm Do we need to believe in God to be happier? |
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The majority adheres to religion simply out of fear or out of simple family traditions.
And please stop talking instead of me. I am an atheist but I don't belong to any atheist group. I have been studying in a Christian school for 8 years and I have my best marks in New Testament and Life of Christ.
And might I rebuke about the Flying Spaghetti Monster, please do not insult him. Even his benevolence knows boundaries, and I'd suggest not testing it.
And please do not question his existence, because this photo clearly proves he walks amongst us!
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BuddhaGeo
You can meet me at english-test.net
Joined: 21 Dec 2007
Posts: 67
Location: Tbilisi, Georgia
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| #21 (permalink) Wed Dec 26, 2007 17:52 pm Do we need to believe in God to be happier? |
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| BuddhaGeo wrote: |
| The majority adheres to religion simply out of fear or out of simple family traditions. |
I think you're projecting your own fear and family traditions on other people. Again, you're trying to shout down your beliefs.
| BuddhaGeo wrote: |
| And please stop talking instead of me. I am an atheist but I don't belong to any atheist group. I have been studying in a Christian school for 8 years and I have my best marks in New Testament and Life of Christ. |
When you say "Christian" I assume that means your school adheres to some kind of Protestant fundamentalism, because those are the only people who label themselves "Christian" without telling which sect they belong to.
Eight years of Christian school is about enough to accumulate a 13-year-old's knowledge of theology. That's about as much as the typical atheist intellectual has, so when they debate with serious Christians, Jews or Muslims, it's always like listening to a pre-adolescent argue with an adult. The atheist usually sounds very primitive to a well-educated religious person, and he sounds like he's arguing with a child who is not in the room.
Additionally, your knowledge of religious education evidently comes from one of the sects with the most primitive theology, so you were taught childish theology up to the level of late childhood, so you don't have much knowledge to refute. An Orthodox or Catholic theologian could make hamburger out of your atheist tenets, and out of a lot of the theology you were taught. |
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Jamie (K)
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 5334
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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| #22 (permalink) Wed Dec 26, 2007 18:03 pm Do we need to believe in God to be happier? |
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First, I don't have any beliefs. That's the only thing I'm shouting cause you don't seem to understand, and you keep on insisting that I do, just because I argue on religious topics.
Second, I am 18, not 13.
Third, please stop categorizing "atheists", for there is no such group.
Fourth, I don't care what Richard Dawnkins says, he doesn't represent me.
Fifth, I don't really care about your opinion because I don't even know you.
Sixth, you called "atheists" primitive, which means you're an atheist, since you're shouting insults.
Seventh, I live in an Orthodox country.
Eighth, I wasn't only taught, I learned something by myself too.
Ninth, I do not like hamburgers, I prefer spaghetti. |
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BuddhaGeo
You can meet me at english-test.net
Joined: 21 Dec 2007
Posts: 67
Location: Tbilisi, Georgia
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| #23 (permalink) Thu Dec 27, 2007 14:22 pm Do we need to believe in God to be happier? |
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| BuddhaGeo wrote: |
| First, I don't have any beliefs. That's the only thing I'm shouting cause you don't seem to understand, and you keep on insisting that I do, just because I argue on religious topics. |
I insist you do have beliefs, because you do.
| BuddhaGeo wrote: |
| Second, I am 18, not 13. |
It doesn't matter. You have approximately a 13-year-old's theological knowledge. That is typical of atheists, and I've frequently seen atheists in their 60s who have the theological understanding of a 12-year-old. That's why I said that when they debate, it always sounds like they're arguing with a child who's not in the room.
| BuddhaGeo wrote: |
| Third, please stop categorizing "atheists", for there is no such group. |
People with similar beliefs show similar behaviors and say similar things, whether they are organized or not. So there's a group, even if no one has formally organized one. There are 50 billion zillion Evangelical Christian churches that don't have anything to do with each other, but somehow their members all have similar beliefs and behave in a similar way. There's no formal organization of dogs or chimpanzees, but their behavior is mostly predictable.
| BuddhaGeo wrote: |
| Fourth, I don't care what Richard Dawnkins says, he doesn't represent me. |
Except that you sound like him.
| BuddhaGeo wrote: |
| Fifth, I don't really care about your opinion because I don't even know you. |
If you don't care about my opinion, then don't debate me.
| BuddhaGeo wrote: |
| Sixth, you called "atheists" primitive, which means you're an atheist, since you're shouting insults. |
That's a real stretch of logic. I said that you obviously believed in God because you subject theistic belief to ridicule in a way that in my long experience is done only by people who believe in God but don't want to.
I was not shouting insults about atheists. I simply said that they tend to have underdeveloped, childish theological understanding along with adult reasoning powers. You have to admit that's a far cry from blabbering about some "spaghetti monster".
| BuddhaGeo wrote: |
| Eighth, I wasn't only taught, I learned something by myself too. |
But you haven't had time to learn that much. |
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Jamie (K)
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 5334
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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| #24 (permalink) Thu Dec 27, 2007 15:51 pm Do we need to believe in God to be happier? |
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Thank you.
I have received Jesus Christ as my personal savior after your wise words. Now I am in his service and my life is wholly dedicated to the Lord and walking in his divine footsteps. My empty and pointless life was suddenly filled with peace and harmony which was bestowed upon me by my Savior.
Thank you once again for opening my eyes towards the truth, may God bless you and your family. |
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BuddhaGeo
You can meet me at english-test.net
Joined: 21 Dec 2007
Posts: 67
Location: Tbilisi, Georgia
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Jamie (K)
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 5334
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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| #26 (permalink) Thu Dec 27, 2007 15:58 pm Do we need to believe in God to be happier? |
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| Are you satisfied now? |
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BuddhaGeo
You can meet me at english-test.net
Joined: 21 Dec 2007
Posts: 67
Location: Tbilisi, Georgia
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| #27 (permalink) Thu Dec 27, 2007 16:03 pm Do we need to believe in God to be happier? |
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| BuddhaGeo wrote: |
| Are you satisfied now? |
I'm still laughing!  |
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Jamie (K)
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 5334
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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| #28 (permalink) Thu Dec 27, 2007 16:10 pm Do we need to believe in God to be happier? |
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| I edited the post to make it funner btw. |
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BuddhaGeo
You can meet me at english-test.net
Joined: 21 Dec 2007
Posts: 67
Location: Tbilisi, Georgia
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| #29 (permalink) Sat Dec 29, 2007 22:13 pm Do we need to believe in God to be happier? |
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I spent 14 years at a Catholic school. When I was about 14, I was sitting in Mass and realised I didn't believe in Catholicism or Christianity at all, apart from the glaringly obvious principle of generally trying to treat people well. It was like a bolt from the blue. Suddenly I realised that I didn't think Jesus had ever existed and I'd never the presence of a God. Around that time I read the Bible, both testaments, and was unable to think of it as anything more than a story.
Months later, a classmate's sister died and my peers consoled him that she was with God and how God would help him through it because it was part of his divine plan. I was frustrated with everyone else for what I saw as naivety, but now recognise as their need to believe that events in their lives were governed by a being that likes them rather than that everything happens at random.
I don't hate belief. True, religion has inspired horrific acts, but humans have always used their ideals to justify atrocities and they haven't always been religious ones, nor does religion damage most of its adherents. I disagree with many churches' black-and-white views on things like homosexuality or euthanasia, but from what I've seen, people will believe what they want on those things regardless of what their church says about it.
For all I know, maybe some people do genuinely feel the presence of a God. Maybe they can't help being theists any more than I can help being atheist. Mainly, though, I think people cling to religion to alleviate their fears: about the chaotic nature of life, and the finality of death. It's a comforting idea: a benevolent, omnipotent God, who listens to prayers and - if you are well-behaved - acts in your favour during life and welcomes you to paradise afterwards. Religion is the placebo of the masses, not the opiate.
I would consider myself a happy person - there seems to be a misconception that atheists are constantly tormented by existential crises and religious doubt when nothing could be further from the truth! I love my family and friends, I take great pleasure in my hobbies and interests, I intend to do a job that will benefit society (going to medical school next year). I feel secure that my world-view is the best I can come up with based on the information I have. My philosophy in general is to do the best you can at the time with the resources available, and that way I can have few regrets. (I always liked a line of Stendhal's: "Why should I suppose that I have more sense today than when I made up my mind?")
It wouldn't be fair to compare my happiness now to when I counted myself as a believer: I'm convinced that the early teens are a fairly rubbish time for everyone  I'm nearly 19 now and keep an open mind towards religion, but I don't really see the need for a God. I'm interested in the question of why people believe since every society has religion, but I'm certainly not consumed by doubt in my beliefs.
JamieK, your view of atheism is very skewed. Atheism and antitheism are two very different things. Writers such as Dawkins and Hitchens aren't so much antitheist as anti-religion. From what I've read, they criticise religious dogma rather than the question of whether or not there is a God, which is something none of us can prove either way. Some atheists poke fun at religion just as some Christians poke fun at Scientology: not because of latent belief in it, but because it seems bizarre and a little bit silly. |
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Screenager
I'm new here and I like it ;-)
Joined: 20 Nov 2007
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| #30 (permalink) Sun Dec 30, 2007 6:05 am Do we need to believe in God to be happier? |
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| screenager wrote: |
| I spent 14 years at a Catholic school. When I was about 14, I was sitting in Mass and realised I didn't believe in Catholicism or Christianity at all, apart from the glaringly obvious principle of generally trying to treat people well. |
And from what do you derive your principles of how to treat people well? From some pleasure principle? More likely it's derived from the Christianity you were taught as a child.
| screenager wrote: |
| It was like a bolt from the blue. Suddenly I realised that I didn't think Jesus had ever existed and I'd never the presence of a God. Around that time I read the Bible, both testaments, and was unable to think of it as anything more than a story. |
Your story is something like mine was when I was your age. Your remark about having made your decision at age 14 reminds me of when some greenie, feminist, union activist or whoever gets up in front of a crowd and gives some statement by a 4-year-old child she knows as "proof" that whatever her agenda is must be common sense. In situations like that, no one ever seems to question whether a tiny child's "wisdom" is reliable.
Someone who rejects religion at age 14, as I did, and you did, is rejecting the extremely simplified version of it that is taught to children and preadolescents. Reading the Bible doesn't enlighten a 14-year-old in that mindset, because he lacks the life experience to make sense out of a lot of it. Even an 18-year-old isn't smart enough to understand it the way a real adult does. As years wear on, and one understands more and more about human nature, people see things even in other types of literature that they weren't capable of seeing when they were teenagers. If you don't believe me, take some deep novel, like War and Peace, and read it once a decade for the rest of your life. Old people who do that will tell you it's like a different book every time.
I'm deeply embarrassed of many thoughts and opinions I had when I was in my teens, and even in my 20s and early 30s, and I'd hate to have to determine my entire life's philosophy based on something I decided as a stupid 14-year-old kid. I was wrong about almost everything.
| screenager wrote: |
| Months later, a classmate's sister died and my peers consoled him that she was with God and how God would help him through it because it was part of his divine plan. I was frustrated with everyone else for what I saw as naivety, but now recognise as their need to believe that events in their lives were governed by a being that likes them rather than that everything happens at random. |
People overstep their bounds in this situation, because if they were truly practicing their religion correctly, they wouldn't be making conjectures about the mind of God. Even from a Christian standpoint, there was no certainty that the girl was "with God". People just don't know what to day in those situations.
| screenager wrote: |
| I don't hate belief. |
But later in your post you disparage it a bit maliciously.
| screenager wrote: |
| True, religion has inspired horrific acts, but humans have always used their ideals to justify atrocities and they haven't always been religious ones, |
Don't forget the gargantuan atrocities committed in the name of official atheism.
| screenager wrote: |
| I disagree with many churches' black-and-white views on things like homosexuality or euthanasia, |
I don't see the mainline churches, including the Catholic church, as having such a "black-and-white" view about homosexuality and euthanasia. Their stand is, in fact, rather complicated and quite nuanced, but a 14- or 18-year-old relying mainly on the secular press would never detect this.
| screenager wrote: |
| Mainly, though, I think people cling to religion to alleviate their fears: about the chaotic nature of life, and the finality of death. It's a comforting idea: a benevolent, omnipotent God, who listens to prayers and - if you are well-behaved - acts in your favour during life and welcomes you to paradise afterwards. Religion is the placebo of the masses, not the opiate. |
I think you've got it backwards in a lot of cases. Many atheists think that everything is somehow accessible to science and the human mind, and they have an exaggerated view of how controllable things in life are. (That's why atheism so often goes hand in hand with socialism.) This gives them a false sense of security, because they think that one human mind, or a group of them, can make sense of almost anything one way or another. People who move from atheism to religion have to take the huge leap of realizing that enormous numbers of things can never be known and can never be controlled, and that things go on around us that our perceptual abilities are not adequate to detect. An educated, religiously mature adult is usually more comfortable with incomprehensible, random occurrences than most atheists are.
| screenager wrote: |
| I feel secure that my world-view is the best I can come up with based on the information I have. |
But you don't have much information.
| screenager wrote: |
| My philosophy in general is to do the best you can at the time with the resources available, and that way I can have few regrets. (I always liked a line of Stendhal's: "Why should I suppose that I have more sense today than when I made up my mind?") |
That Stendahl quote is stupid, because it assumes people don't develop. |
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Jamie (K)
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Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 5334
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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