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 Wed Nov 07, 2007 17:03 pm How do you do with your pharyngeals? |
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Maybe you can learn Arabic characters. It will make your tongue very flexible.
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NinaZara
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| Thu Nov 08, 2007 1:41 am How do you do with your pharyngeals? |
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| Alhough I can reproduce these sounds, which I know from the Arabic alphabet, I'm totally unable to explain how to make them. Try to find some audio samples -- it's probably the easiest way to learn them. |
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Conchita
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| Thu Nov 08, 2007 7:03 am How do you do with your pharyngeals? |
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I can't roll my R's , Conchita ? NinaZara ? can you help me? I want to sound like a Yakuza when I get angry
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Boke
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Yankee
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| Fri Nov 09, 2007 0:39 am How do you do with your pharyngeals? |
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You need to make your glottis vibrate. I can do it in 3 octaves -- not becasue I'm all that great, but because I concentrate on lowering my oral cavity to the glottis so that it only allows for a very limited airstream. I might be wrong, but it feels as if I give the cartilage of the trachea a very limited breathing space.
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Ralf
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| Fri Nov 09, 2007 18:15 pm How do you do with your pharyngeals? |
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| Try the Czech sound [ř]! It's like a [ʒ] and a Spanish [̃r] happening at the same time! It's VERY hard to pronounce. |
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Jamie (K)
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| Fri Nov 09, 2007 20:34 pm How do you do with your pharyngeals? |
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the Spanish "rr" is rolled behind the top two front teeth -- I was in the habit of doing it with my soft palate, but we had an exchange student from Valencia who set me straight.
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prezbucky
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| Sat Nov 10, 2007 20:12 pm How do you do with your pharyngeals? |
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Hi Jamie,
I don't have access to a Czech speaker at the moment who could assess my realisation of Czech 'r', but based on your transcription is it not supposed to be an extra short alveolar trill?
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Englishuser
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| Sat Nov 10, 2007 20:27 pm How do you do with your pharyngeals? |
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| Englishuser wrote: | | I don't have access to a Czech speaker at the moment who could assess my realisation of Czech 'r', but based on your transcription is it not supposed to be an extra short alveolar trill? |
No, it's an alveopalatal trill, and it's not extra short. It can be voiced or voiceless, depending on the sound that follows it. The only other language I've ever heard of with that sound is an Australian aborigine language. |
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Jamie (K)
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| Sun Nov 11, 2007 2:31 am How do you do with your pharyngeals? |
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Hi Jamie,
What I don't understand fully is why this sound is transcribed as [ř]. As far as I can tell, the phonemic symbol you use is that of an alveolar trill, and the diactritic mark is the one used to indicate that a sound is extra short (it is listed under 'suprasegmentals' on the IPA chart). The handbook of the IPA includes this description of Czech /r/.
| Quote: | | There are two trills, /r/, as in ruka /ruka/ 'hand', and /r (with the diacritic for raised which I cannot type here)/ as in reka /reka/ (diacritics missing again) 'river'. The first one is an alveolar apical trill with 1 - 3 periods of vibration. It is immune from voicing assimilation and occurs voiced in all positions in the word. In the case of /r/ (with that diacritic), the place of articulation is normally similar to that of /r/. Although it may be produced with the blade of the tongue, the main differentiating characteristic from /r/ is the number of vibrations, which may be 1 - 2 greater than in /r/, and their lesser amplitude than for vibrations in /r/. Also, the constriction is narrower and the velocity of air greater. This sound often starts as a trill but continues as a fricative and thus probably the best term for it is 'alveolar trill fricative' with the symbol /r (with diacritic)/. |
When I try to make this sound, I find that I make an alveolar trill faster than usual. Do you think I have got it right?
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Englishuser
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| Sun Nov 11, 2007 3:42 am How do you do with your pharyngeals? |
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| Englishuser wrote: | | What I don't understand fully is why this sound is transcribed as [ř]. As far as I can tell, the phonemic symbol you use is that of an alveolar trill, |
No, the alveolar trill is indicated by [̃r], if I'm not mistaken.
| Englishuser wrote: | | and the diactritic mark is the one used to indicate that a sound is extra short (it is listed under 'suprasegmentals' on the IPA chart). The handbook of the IPA includes this description of Czech /r/. |
In Czech orthography, all the alveopalatal sounds are indicated by a small V, called a háček above them (which you'll see is also the English term if you look in the right English dictionary). They are the same as their symbols in the American variant of IPA. So, š is [ʃ], č is [tʃ], and ž is [ʒ]. The háček in ř also indicates palatalization.
| Quote: | | There are two trills, /r/, as in ruka /ruka/ 'hand', and /r (with the diacritic for raised which I cannot type here)/ as in reka /reka/ (diacritics missing again) 'river'. The first one is an alveolar apical trill with 1 - 3 periods of vibration. |
I don't know where they're getting this. The first one is not a trill; it's realized as an alveolar tap. It's never realized as a trill in anyone's normal speech. I've only heard it trilled when someone is purposely trying to draw it out, as in when my mom's uncle once said, "And he was rrrrrrrrrrrrunning..."
| Quote: | | It is immune from voicing assimilation and occurs voiced in all positions in the word. |
That's true about the regular [r] in Czech.
| Quote: | | In the case of /r/ (with that diacritic), the place of articulation is normally similar to that of /r/. Although it may be produced with the blade of the tongue, the main differentiating characteristic from /r/ is the number of vibrations, which may be 1 - 2 greater than in /r/, and their lesser amplitude than for vibrations in /r/. Also, the constriction is narrower and the velocity of air greater. This sound often starts as a trill but continues as a fricative and thus probably the best term for it is 'alveolar trill fricative' with the symbol /r (with diacritic)/. |
They key is that it has a fricative quality, and the blade of the tongue is raised, which gives it the sound of [r] and [ʒ] at the same time.
| Englishuser wrote: | | When I try to make this sound, I find that I make an alveolar trill faster than usual. Do you think I have got it right? |
It's not just a trill. If you don't get that [ʒ] sound in it, you're not doing it right. |
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Jamie (K)
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| English /s/ - apical, laminal, or something in between? | The English labiodental fricatives |
