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 Sun Nov 18, 2007 22:19 pm Is it cocky/confusing to speak with a British accent? |
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Hi Jamie,
How well do foreign phoneticians pronounce English, in your experience? How long did you talk to people in the foreign languages you mentioned before the natives noticed you were not a native speaker?
EU |
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Englishuser
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| Sun Nov 18, 2007 23:37 pm Is it cocky/confusing to speak with a British accent? |
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| Englishuser wrote: | Hi Alan,
Are you familiar with corpus linguistics? I think the main point is that some sentences are accurate, some collocations possible, while others are not. Unusual collocations are not too uncommon in native written English.
EU |
Hi EU,
Why not concentrate on the bright side of things? You're written command of the English language is excellent and almost native speaker-like, you have an accent that would arouse envy with most Duchesses in the 1930s, and your word choice is living proof for long and successful years of studying the English language. Why this obsession with perfection?
It could be worse, you could (like me) forever be afflicted with an intonation in your second native language that has every native speaker of this language tell you that you are not really a native speaker. That's what most Germans I talk to tell me, and it gets worse when they then change to English and don't understand you anymore. Very awkward, particularly in restaurants when you order a rare steak with chips and you then get it done with a bag of crisps. And then you could (like me) work in this country and speak to people who have trouble understanding an Irish accent, so you end up losing it. And then, one Sunday in a pub, you meet (like me 2 weeks ago) somebody who went to the same primary school like you and doesn't recognise your accent but mistakes it for an English accent. Admittedly, that hurt for a little while, but after the second pint it was alright again.
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Ralf
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| Mon Nov 19, 2007 1:55 am Is it cocky/confusing to speak with a British accent? |
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Hi Ralf,
| Quote: | | Why not concentrate on the bright side of things? |
Because there is and will always be room for improvement. I believe this applies to each one of us.
| Quote: | | almost native speaker-like |
I do not like the term 'near-native' because to me this implies that the native speaker's command of the language is somehow more sophisticated than that of a highly proficient non-native speaker, which is not always the case. Most of the native speakers I work with frequently misspell words, even fairly simple words, and I honestly don't get why these mistakes should be seen as less grave than occasional unusual collocations coming from a non-native speaker. Note that I wrote 'unusual', not 'erroneous'.
| Quote: | | It could be worse, you could (like me) forever be afflicted with an intonation in your second native language that has every native speaker of this language tell you that you are not really a native speaker. |
I know exactly what you are talking about, and I think it is mostly monolingual native speakers who have lead all their lives in their native country who actually speak a very "pure" form of the language, although even they are likely to make mistakes from time to time. I can speak no language in an absolutely "pure" form, yet people often regard me as a highly articulate speaker of the languages I am proficient in and for me this is almost enough.
Alan's comments on language sometimes annoy me because I sense that he is not a linguist in the sense that some of the other posters here are. He does not know phonetic symbols, nor does he seem very familiar with corpus linguistics, yet he claims to be a highly qualified ESL professional. How can you be a qualified ESL professional without knowing English phonetics? Alan's grasp on linguistic theory in general does not seem that great either.
John Wells writes:
| Quote: | | I take the following examples from one of our best Spanish-speaking MA Phonetics students, who speaks English fluently and idiomatically, as well as having an excellent grasp of phonetic theory. These are some of her errors in the transcription of English words in a recent examination: |
| Quote: | Even advanced students sometimes forget the phonetic rules for regular plural and past tense formation in English. Although spelt with s, the plural ending is pronounced /z/ if the preceding segment is voiced and non-sibilant.
Clearly someone who thinks they are pronounced as transcribed above (wrongly) is not going to pronounce them correctly, and will have a noticeable foreign accent. |
EU |
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Englishuser
I'm here quite often ;-)
Joined: 06 Jun 2006
Posts: 806
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| Mon Nov 19, 2007 4:07 am Is it cocky/confusing to speak with a British accent? |
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| Englishuser wrote: | | Alan's comments on language sometimes annoy me because I sense that he is not a linguist in the sense that some of the other posters here are. |
Maybe so, but we linguists get in your craw also, particularly when we agree with Alan or have the audacity to point out that you've made a mistake, no matter how minor.
| Englishuser wrote: | | He does not know phonetic symbols, |
Do you know this? I have never seen any indication that he doesn't know phonetic symbols. Certainly an educated anglophone of his generation would have been taught phonetic symbols at about the age of 9, as I was. If he didn't know phonetic symbols, he couldn't use a dictionary, which he obviously can.
| Englishuser wrote: | | nor does he seem very familiar with corpus linguistics, |
I see that corpus linguistics is a new kick you're on. Corpus linguistic data is only as good as the judgment of the person using it, and it can be used to very screwy effect, as when a corpus-based Oxford learner's dictionary marks words as basic as "grape" as not being essential, simply because they have lower frequency than others.
| Englishuser wrote: | | yet he claims to be a highly qualified ESL professional. |
He OBVIOUSLY IS a highly qualified ESL professional!
| Englishuser wrote: | | How can you be a qualified ESL professional without knowing English phonetics? Alan's grasp on linguistic theory in general does not seem that great either. |
You're displaying a somewhat childish egotism over linguistic disciplines you've got relatively short acquaintance with. Then you use your new knowledge to try to beat up a highly qualified ESL professional who has certainly forgotten more than you or I have ever learned. You just make yourself look smaller and him look like a Leviathan.
| Englishuser wrote: | John Wells writes:
| Quote: | | I take the following examples from one of our best Spanish-speaking MA Phonetics students, who speaks English fluently and idiomatically, as well as having an excellent grasp of phonetic theory. These are some of her errors in the transcription of English words in a recent examination: |
| Quote: | Even advanced students sometimes forget the phonetic rules for regular plural and past tense formation in English. Although spelt with s, the plural ending is pronounced /z/ if the preceding segment is voiced and non-sibilant.
Clearly someone who thinks they are pronounced as transcribed above (wrongly) is not going to pronounce them correctly, and will have a noticeable foreign accent. |
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There's an old Woody Allen movie in which he stands in line at the movies and has to endure the under-informed, misinformed and malformed analysis of the theories of Marshall McLuhan that some regular guy is trying to impress his date with. The guy's self-important blabber gets so unbearable that Woody Allen pulls Marshall McLuhan out from somewhere, and McLuhan berates the guy for knowing "NOTHING about my work!" Every time you do this with someone like John Wells, I realize I could probably pull the same stunt Woody pulled in the movie. Believe me, you make it very tempting. |
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Jamie (K)
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Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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| Mon Nov 19, 2007 10:43 am Is it cocky/confusing to speak with a British accent? |
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Hi Jamie,
Thanks for joining in!
| Quote: | | Maybe so, but we linguists get in your craw also, particularly when we agree with Alan or have the audacity to point out that you've made a mistake, no matter how minor. |
Perhaps we should be less concerned with my mistakes and more concerned with the state of the English language in general. I don't think it's very sensitive of Alan to use another poster's writings as examples in a negative way. A serious professional should always behave himself.
| Quote: | | Do you know this? I have never seen any indication that he doesn't know phonetic symbols. |
This is what Alan has told us in his own postings. So unless he is lying I assume he doesn't know IPA.
| Quote: | | Corpus linguistic data is only as good as the judgment of the person using it |
Yes, and this is exactly why it is so important to learn how to interpret that data.
| Quote: | | He OBVIOUSLY IS a highly qualified ESL professional! |
On what grounds? Because he writes witty stories?
| Quote: | | Then you use your new knowledge to try to beat up a highly qualified ESL professional who has certainly forgotten more than you or I have ever learned. |
This may be partially true, but I certainly think you and I have learnt things which Alan hasn't.
| Quote: | | Every time you do this with someone like John Wells, I realize I could probably pull the same stunt Woody pulled in the movie. Believe me, you make it very tempting. |
I think most of my quotes are relevant and supportive of what I have myself written. In this particular case, I wanted to highlight that it is the foreign accent that is most likely to make people think you are not a native speaker.
EU |
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Englishuser
I'm here quite often ;-)
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| Mon Nov 19, 2007 11:19 am Is it cocky/confusing to speak with a British accent? |
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| Englishuser wrote: | Hi Ralf,
| Quote: | | Why not concentrate on the bright side of things? |
Because there is and will always be room for improvement. I believe this applies to each one of us.
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Hi EU,
You are right, there always is. So why are you so affronted when somebody who you call a 'witty story writer' corrects your English? You obviously have no idea who Alan is or what he has done all his life, but you could display some grandeur by imbibing his advice instead of bending corpus linguistic data in your favour and quoting your beloved John Wells.
Character stems from self-criticism and separate identity.
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Ralf
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| Mon Nov 19, 2007 11:51 am Is it cocky/confusing to speak with a British accent? |
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Hi EU,
I see you are smarting because I have dared single out a couple of examples of the way you have used words/expressions. You go on about my confession on not knowing phonetic symbols - this is rather like me saying that I couldn't ride a bike today to save my life whereas when I was about 50 years younger I could cycle for miles and miles. You have already received accolades on your knowledge of English but my point remains that it isn't the accent that reveals whether a person is a native speaker or not but the way they use words and the choices they make. Your comment: the main point is that some sentences are accurate, some collocations possible, while others are not. Unusual collocations are not too uncommon in native written English. almost had me fall off my swivel chair. In laughter, I admit. You seem to regard speaking/writing English as some kind of mechanical process that follows rigid lines and you quote John Wells or some corpus or other to support you or as you would say and I wouldn't, aid you. These sources are only cataloguing what others have said or written. They do not get to the heart of someone's first language learnt at mother's knee, as it were. I am familiar with written and spoken English used by those for whom it isn't a first language and can usually detect this.
You, EU (and why not use your actual name for pity's sake) may delve into corpus after corpus, research every reference book written on the use of English but I wager you'll still come out sounding really like a non-native English User. You have to live the language. I could pick out further examples from your posts to illustrate my point but I fear you will then accuse me of misbehaviour.
Alan
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| Mon Nov 19, 2007 13:10 pm Is it cocky/confusing to speak with a British accent? |
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This is a postscript to the post above in which I should have nailed this quote from EU
| Quote: | | yet he claims to be a highly qualified ESL professional. |
I can confess to being phonetically rusty (now check that out in one of your corpora) but I can't recall having claimed what you have said I have, personally. All I can say in my defence is WYSIWYG, in the best of all possible tastes.
Alan
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| Mon Nov 19, 2007 13:33 pm Is it cocky/confusing to speak with a British accent? |
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Hi Alan,
I honestly cannot see why you always have to go on about my use of English. I never asked for "corrections". On the contrary, I have stated explicitly that I do not wish to receive any such feedback whatsoever from you, Alan. Why can't you simply honour my request?
I do prefer posting anonymously and intend to continue doing so as I would not benefit from making a fool of myself in public. It is interesting that you think there are so many non-native features to be detected in my English when other people clearly detect very few such features. Some of the "suggestions" you make can be regarded as alternative wording rather than real "corrections", as many other native speakers have put it.
For your information, I would certainly not use 'aid you' in place of 'support you' as that would sound strange to me. How do you explain that the expressions you quoted have been used in "my" way by native English speakers?
My IELTS score indicates that I, "use a wide range of vocabulary with very natural control of lexical features with rare minor errors occurring only as slips". It is clear from this description that my writing should be native-like in most of its features instead of being, as you claim, very obviously the accomplishment of a non-native speaker.
EU |
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Englishuser
I'm here quite often ;-)
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| Mon Nov 19, 2007 13:37 pm Is it cocky/confusing to speak with a British accent? |
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Hi Ralf,
| Quote: | | So why are you so affronted when somebody who you call a 'witty story writer' corrects your English? |
Because it simply is inappropriate to correct other people without their permission. Alan does not correct your English, Jamie's English, or Conchita's English. Alan quite clearly does not appreciate it when people correct mistakes he has made, so I suppose I am just a bit "Alanish" in this respect.
EU |
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Englishuser
I'm here quite often ;-)
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| Mon Nov 19, 2007 13:51 pm Is it cocky/confusing to speak with a British accent? |
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Hi EU,
Let's just stick to the facts: I haven't 'corrected' what you have written. I have commented on it. And I did this to illustrate my belief that it is possible to notice from what a person writes in English whether it is their native language or not.
Alan
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| Mon Nov 19, 2007 15:06 pm Is it cocky/confusing to speak with a British accent? |
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| Englishuser wrote: | | I honestly cannot see why you always have to go on about my use of English. I never asked for "corrections". On the contrary, I have stated explicitly that I do not wish to receive any such feedback whatsoever from you, Alan. Why can't you simply honour my request? |
Why are you so damn touchy when people point out that your English has mistakes in it? It's not that you don't want Alan correcting you, it's that you don't want ANYONE correcting you.
For the record, Alan has pointed out things in my own English that he finds odd. Sometimes they are American expressions that he's unfamiliar with, and sometimes I really have made a mistake, even though I'm a native speaker. When I have actually made a mistake, I just have to swallow my pride and admit it. We all correct Conchita's English when we disagree with it, and she's very gracious about taking the criticism. So your idea that other people don't get corrected is a monumental bit of selective perception.
Those verbal explanations of the IELTS score are simply canned descriptions that are generated by computer. I don't know how you can flatter yourself with such a thing. |
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Jamie (K)
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
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Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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| Mon Nov 19, 2007 15:18 pm Is it cocky/confusing to speak with a British accent? |
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| Englishuser wrote: | | Because it simply is inappropriate to correct other people without their permission. |
I didn't notice Alan having given you permission to savage him as ignorantly as you did. |
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Jamie (K)
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
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Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
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| Mon Nov 19, 2007 15:39 pm Is it cocky/confusing to speak with a British accent? |
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Hi,
| Quote: | | It's not that you don't want Alan correcting you, it's that you don't want ANYONE correcting you. |
People sometimes correct me, but all those people do it as it is part of their job. They do not correct me if I write things that they are not supposed to be correcting. They also do not point out that my mistakes are typical of non-native speakers, as any such comments are mostly unproductive unless the mistakes are systematic. Sometimes it is difficult to tell whether someone has really made a mistake or just used an unusual collocation as in "supply assistance" as opposed to "provide assistance".
| Quote: | | Those verbal explanations of the IELTS score are simply canned descriptions that are generated by computer. I don't know how you can flatter yourself with such a thing. |
Such descriptions are supposed to describe the candidate's performance in English. At Band 9 level, your writing is supposed to be "as good as an educated native speaker's", whatever this may mean.
| Quote: | | I didn't notice Alan having given you permission to savage him as ignorantly as you did. |
I agree. I do apologise to Alan.
EU |
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Englishuser
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| Want to have an american accent? | Accomplishing a 'perfect' piece of writing |
