"in a sense that" v. "in the sense that"

hewhocares · Wed Nov 21, 2007 12:06 pm *"in a sense that" v. "in the sense that"*

Hi, guys.
Here's my question for you.
What is the difference between the phrases "in a sense that" and" in the sense that", meaning what determines the choice of the article in these phrases?

I need you to explain the use of the article only in identical constructions, that is either of the above phrases followed by a noun-clause (in contrast to a relative one, ie. the one which refers directly to or modifies the word "sense" eg. "All objective targeted missions were successful in a sense that the adaptively taken data impacted the desired forecast features" or "I think he is right in a/the sense that Jack ought to be taught a good lesson", or “I think there was a setback in the sense that people established an expectation that it wasn’t going to work,” (all are noun clauses) versus "it's certainly not a war in the sense that World War II was a war" (relative clause).

Please, do not answer unless you know for sure. I don't want any guessing or supposing I want knowledge. Sorry for this blunt style but I do need a definitive answer not a conjecture (if possible with references to some authoritative sources - but not necessarily).
Thanks a million in advance. Your help will be very much appreciated.
Regards, Richard.

Alan · Wed Nov 21, 2007 12:44 pm *"in a sense that" v. "in the sense that"*

Hi,

Although I don't find the way you have phrased your question particularly endearing, I will give you my answer in the same way I have given some 6,000 answers over the last 4 years. There is nothing very different in your question about the choice of 'in a sense' or 'in the sense' from the use of 'a' or 'the' in any other context. It is the difference between 'a' for generality and 'the' for specificity. 'In a sense' + noun clause indicates in a sort of a sense/in a general sense or simply in one sense. 'In the sense' + noun clause refers to the particular sense/meaning contained within the noun clause.

Alan
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You can read my ESL story A New Season

hewhocares · Wed Nov 21, 2007 13:07 pm *"in a sense that" v. "in the sense that"*

Thanks, Alan.
This time I'll be even more specific, please tell me which of the following statements do you find correct:
1) there's no generalization for "a" or "the" and no difference between the two and native speakers use the phrases "in a/the sense that + noun-clause" indiscriminately, in other words - it is just a matter of individual preferences and there's no point giving it a thought at all
2) the indefinite article is used when a situation/issue is looked at or considered just from a particular point of view or in a particular way (among others), whereas the definite article is used when a statement, situation, etc. is looked at or considered in a particular or specified way which is thought by the author/speaker to be the only one worthy of consideration or the one that is more important than all others, which s/he wants to particularly single out and emphasize

hewhocares · Wed Nov 21, 2007 13:11 pm *"in a sense that" v. "in the sense that"*

Alan, where are you? Wink

hewhocares · Wed Nov 21, 2007 20:27 pm *"in a sense that" v. "in the sense that"*

nobody knows? c'mon, help me out, guys! Can't find any convincing (or even unconvincing) explanations in any available grammars or dictionaries. So, competent, educated native speakers - do come out and have your say! Never mind my previous insistence on "definitiveness" - just share your thoughts. For, after all, better a lean jade than an empty halter, as they say.
Thanks again. Regards, Richard.

prezbucky · Wed Nov 21, 2007 20:46 pm *"in a sense that" v. "in the sense that"*

hewhocares

here are some examples of when to use each phrase:

1) In a sense, I am glad to be flying home to Wisconsin for Thanksgiving.

2) In the sense that I'll be filling up on Mom's cooking, I am glad to be flying home for Thanksgiving.

Like Alan said, "in a sense" conveys the generality of "a", while "in the sense" is more exact. You should feel compelled to further explain yourself when you use "in the sense".

In the sense that I'm tired, I wish I didn't have to drive.

In a sense, I wish I didn't have to drive. You see, I'm tired.
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hewhocares · Wed Nov 21, 2007 21:12 pm *"in a sense that" v. "in the sense that"*

We seem to be talking at cross-purposes. I know perfectly well what the expression "in a sense" means, what I don't know and what nobody and no native source seems to be able to explain to me is the difference (if any) between "in a sense that" (no comma between "in a sense" and "that") and "in the sense that" followed by a noun (also called "nominal") clause. Here are some examples for you, guys, to better understand what I want:

1) in a sense that + noun clause
a) "And when I speak out on an issue, it's because somebody needs to speak out on the issue, and I can do it without fear, in a sense that I'm not here trying to burnish my image.
(source: Dick Cheney)

b) President Bush is right in a sense that you do need partners that are willing for peace, and we do need to get to the stage where in the end there is a negotiation that is successful, based on the two state solution
(source:washington post)

c) I'm not aware of any grading except in the sense of how they function. It's a question an educational psychologist would be able to answer, in a sense that grading is the degree they are able to integrate or not into a mainstream school.
(BBC Documentaries)

2) in the sense that + noun clause
I think the burden of being a prime minister does, I think, grind you down. Clearly we saw with Margaret Thatcher, another British prime minister who became very much a world figure, that even with her it began I think to grind her down in the sense that she lost a bit of her political judgement, she got Britain involved in the poll tax - that was the tax on every individual in the country.
(Nick Jones, a BBC political expert)

b) “The prime minister said that it would make a big difference politically and legally if Saddam refused to allow in the UN inspectors,” record the minutes. “Regime change and WMD were linked in the sense that it was the regime that was producing the WMD . . . If the political context were right, people would support regime change.”
(Minutes of a political meeting at Downing Street, dated May 2005. Source: timesonline.co.uk)

c) Frege sees proof not fundamentally as just any structure of logical derivation, but as a form of justification or grounding. From this perspective, basic truths are unprovable in the sense that they cannot be grounded or given a justification by being derived from other truths
Tyler Burge (Tyler Burge (born 1946, Ph.D., Princeton University, 1971) is a Professor of Philosophy at UCLA.

So I repeat my question - which of the following statements do you find correct:
1) there's no generalization, no differentiation between the two and native speakers use the phrases "in a/the sense that + noun-clause" indiscriminately, in other words - it is just a matter of individual preferences and there's no point giving it a thought at all

2) the indefinite article is used when a situation/issue is looked at or considered just from a particular point of view or in a particular way (among others), whereas the definite article is used when a statement, situation, etc. is looked at or considered in a particular or specified way which is thought by the author/speaker to be the only one worthy of consideration or the one that is more important than all others, which s/he wants to particularly single out and emphasize

If any of you have any thoughts on this - they will be most welcome. Thanks.

Alan · Wed Nov 21, 2007 21:28 pm *"in a sense that" v. "in the sense that"*

Hi,

I really can't see why you are making such a hoo-ha out of this. The two articles exist - 'a' and 'the' and in the strictest way are different if they are used in that strict way. The fact that people use one and not the other is neither here nor there. It is of no consequence. You can quote examples from writers/speakers till the cows come home or if you like, till cows come home, it won't change the world of language. In fact it will contribute diddly-squat. Let's talk about language matters that matter. In the words of the dragons in the BBC tv series, Dragons' Den, I'm out.

Alan
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You can read my EFL story Here comes 2004...

prezbucky · Wed Nov 21, 2007 21:34 pm *"in a sense that" v. "in the sense that"*

Alan, what do you think about 'til vs. till?

The full word is "until"... do you think it's all right to shorten it to 'til, as opposed to till?

thanks,

Tom
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hewhocares · Wed Nov 21, 2007 21:44 pm *"in a sense that" v. "in the sense that"*

Oh, that's been extremely helpful. Thanks a bunch, Alan. But the bottom line is: you just don't know (truth to tell, however, you are not alone in this) and instead of saying it bluntly you you're weasling your way out. At least, that's how I see it. And by the way, if this is not a language matter that matters, then what is?

Just for reference: English Grammar (in comparison to German or Russian, for example) is not very difficult but: the use of articles is the hardest language issue for any non-native speaker of English whose language does not have this grammatical category (meaning "the article"). Literature on this is meagure and not comprehensive. So I don't need your lecturing, Alan, I need your help. And I haven't received any so far.

Regards, Richard.

prezbucky · Wed Nov 21, 2007 22:54 pm *"in a sense that" v. "in the sense that"*

he

in 1, Cheney should have said "...in the sense that..."

The entire point is that "in A sense that" is used when you do not feel like explaining the sense that you're talking about. When you want to explain, you use "in THE sense that".

The is definite.

A is indefinite.

Tom: In a sense, I'm worried.

Jim: Why are you worried, Tom?

Tom: In the sense that I'm overweight, unemployed, and ugly.

(well... I suppose that could be "in the senseS"... but nobody says that)
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Billie Jean is not my lover. Hee.

lost_soul · Thu Nov 22, 2007 5:39 am *"in a sense that" v. "in the sense that"*

Hi, Tom
Saying "Cheney should have said..." did you imply that Cheney had made a grammar mistake ?
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Alex

A native speaker of Russian

Yankee · Sat Nov 24, 2007 5:04 am *"in a sense that" v. "in the sense that"*

.
I don't think Prezbucky was necessarily implying that, Alex. Cheney might have made a mistake, or there might be a typo in the text. It's hard to say for sure. But I agree with Prezbucky that Cheney's sentence needs 'in the sense' rather than 'in a sense'.
.
_________________
Amy
.
ESL teacher, translator, and a native speaker of American English

hewhocares · Sat Nov 24, 2007 5:34 am *"in a sense that" v. "in the sense that"*

Hi, Ami. It looks like you are the person I need: a native speaker of american english plus a teacher and translator. If it is true then please reread this thread and give your qaulified opinion on the subject. Look at my post from Wed Nov 21, 2007 22:12 pm (native examples - I can add thousands more with in a sense that + noun clause - all coming from native sources, including cnn.com and bbc.co.uk. I would also like you to read the text given below in blue in the same post and answer the question or suggest your own explanation of the phenomenon. I can tell you that I've already contacted more than half a dozen natives (friends, english professinals, their friends - all from the US) on this and so far to no avail - they conjecture, suppose, reason but do not know for sure. Could you help, Amy? If you did, it'd be priceless. TIA.
Regards, Richard.

Yankee · Sat Nov 24, 2007 6:27 am *"in a sense that" v. "in the sense that"*

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