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 Mon Dec 17, 2007 16:17 pm Conversation Classes |
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Well, I did not understand what he meant by saying "Comes you to the party at Friday", so we would not communicate well, without my "come again, please" or "what do you mean?".
I guess, I'm not the exception.
He just needs some motivation. Tell him that what he's saying is not always perfectly clear and people simply would get tired of this constant guessing thing.
I remember Amy telling us a story about a German couple or something who would incessantly use the Present Perfect, mostly out of line and it "rubbed her the wrong way" as it were, i.e. it didn't make her want to talk to them again.
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 lost_soul
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| Mon Dec 17, 2007 16:50 pm Conversation Classes |
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Lost Soul's meticulously adept observation is true, "Could you not get hold of a babysitter?" would be more suitable to charm the instinctive feel for English.
Any other pedagogical ideas to help Al/me?
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Ralf
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| Mon Dec 17, 2007 18:18 pm Conversation Classes |
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Ralf, you beat me to the punch ! You posted your message just beofre I edited mine !
Actually, I had thought that "Couldn't you find a babysitter" would be right but then again, your version seemed right to me too and I corrected my post 
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Alex
How much upchuck would a woodchuck upchuck if a woodchuck could upchuck ?
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lost_soul
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Yankee
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| Mon Dec 17, 2007 19:30 pm Conversation Classes |
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Hi Ralf,
I think Amy and Alex have made very suggestions and I'd like to add the following. Before you take any measures you might want to ask your client this question: Why do you want me to give you conversation lessons? If his answer is something along the lines "Because I want to improve my English" then you should ask him the next question: What areas do you think you have the biggest potential for improvement? You might also ask him how often he needs his English to communicate with people who don't speak German. Instead of telling him up front that he is speaking English with German grammar, you might try to lead him to make the conclusion that he needs to revise his learning techniques. To me it seems that he is trying to produce output too early. In other words: He knows some separate English words and is trying to put them into German sentence structures. Maybe what you should also do is talk back to him in German using English grammar. Talk that way for a while to make him grasp what he sounds like when he is speaking English.
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Torsten
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| Mon Dec 17, 2007 19:47 pm Conversation Classes |
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| Torsten wrote: | | Maybe what you should also do is talk back to him in German using English grammar. Talk that way for a while to make him grasp what he sounds like when he is speaking English. |
Good point, Torsten. I've done that and I've also done something similar with mistakes. I once had a student who constantly said "too less". After numerous unsuccessful corrections, I decided to tell him a story in German. The story purposely contained a bunch of the words "zu weniger". After I'd said "zu weniger" around 5 or 6 times, my student finally corrected me -- at which point I feigned surprise and told him that "zu weniger" was a completely accurate translation of "too less". He never said "too less" again. 
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| Mon Dec 17, 2007 19:54 pm Conversation Classes |
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Hi Amy, it's interesting you mentioned the phrase "too less". For some reason, a lot of Germans seem to say it although it's not a direct translation from German into English like "Sorry that I'm too late" or "I will make holiday". I wonder why so many people use "less" instead of "little". Maybe it's because those learners are not aware of the fact that "little" can mean "klein" as well as "wenig"? What do you think?
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Torsten
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| Mon Dec 17, 2007 20:23 pm Conversation Classes |
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Hi Torsten
Right, it wasn't just that one guy who made the "too less" mistake. As you say, it's quite common for Germans to make that mistake. I think one of the difficulties is that native speakers hardly ever say something such as "I have too little time". Instead, we usually say "I don't have enough time". So, Germans won't hear little used that way very often.
This error probably stems from the fact that the word less is one that is very familiar, the fact that one translation of little is klein, and an (overly) direct translation of "zu wenig". They are probably also rejecting the idea that something that sounds to them like "zu klein" could possibly mean "zu wenig".
Those are my theories, anyway.
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Yankee
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| Mon Dec 17, 2007 22:37 pm Conversation Classes |
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Yes Amy, you hit the nail right on the head -- when somebody makes mistakes like Ralf's client it is because they don't hear correct phrases often enough. So Ralf, an additional measure you can take is the following. The next time you are talking to your client, you write down all the phrases he is using. When you are through with your first "round of talks" you have your client shut his eyes and sit back in his (easy)chair. Then you say the phrase he used but this time in you are using its correct English equivalent. Have your client repeat the correct phrase at least 5 times in a row. Make sure he keeps his eyes closed so it's easier for him to concentrate on your voice.
Your client's problem is that he thinks too much when he is speaking. He thinks too much because he hasn't heard enough correct English sentences. Since he does want to express his thoughts in English he forces himself to create "his own English phrases." As a result he doesn't speak English but German using English words. That's why he needs to hear and repeat entire phrases until he doesn't need to think when he is speaking.
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| Mon Dec 17, 2007 23:04 pm Conversation Classes |
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Thank you for your help everyone. Amy suggested to concentrate on one particular topic each time I meet him, and that's what I've tried so far. Unfortunately his bad old habits seem deeply entrenched. In our last meeting I hit my fist (gently) on the table every time he said “please?” instead of “excuse me?” or “pardon?”. Today he called me up on the phone, and it happened again.
If there is one thing I don't want to do then it's use his own language with him. I at least want to try and create a language environment that is as genuine as possible. You're right though, (unfortunately) I speak his language so a sentence as bad as “I am the Al and me from in the near of the stone break comes” is something I can guess (after a moment of stunned silence).
| Torsten wrote: | | To me it seems that he is trying to produce output too early. In other words: He knows some separate English words and is trying to put them into German sentence structures. Maybe what you should also do is talk back to him in German using English grammar. |
I'd be careful to avoid the impression that I'm making fun of him though. The problem is that he is not "trying to put [English words] into German sentence structure", he can't help it. I've tried explaining SPO concepts and all that, but his mind seems to be immune to grammar input. He's a manager, but his brain appears to be pretty selective.
| Torsten wrote: | | Your client's problem is that he thinks too much when he is speaking. He thinks too much because he hasn't heard enough correct English sentences. Since he does want to express his thoughts in English he forces himself to create "his own English phrases." As a result he doesn't speak English but German using English words. That's why he needs to hear and repeat entire phrases until he doesn't need to think when he is speaking. |
Well, in his case I would argue that he doesn't think too much; he's too careless. But you're right, he doesn't have enough language input even though he works for an American company. I'm sure that he's got several phone calls in English day in day out, but somehow he gets by.
| Torsten wrote: | | The next time you are talking to your client, you write down all the phrases he is using. When you are through with your first "round of talks" you have your client shut his eyes and sit back in his (easy)chair. Then you say the phrase he used but this time in you are using its correct English equivalent. Have your client repeat the correct phrase at least 5 times in a row. Make sure he keeps his eyes closed so it's easier for him to concentrate on your voice. |
That's a good tip and a half!
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Ralf
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Ralf
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| Tue Dec 18, 2007 16:34 pm Conversation Classes |
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Ralf, I find that there's a specific reason why some Germans want conversation lessons rather than real instruction. A lot of them -- especially those in responsible positions -- have a pathologically huge fear of being wrong. If you give them a grammar exercise that contains the potential for them to make mistakes, they are absolutely mortified, and to avoid the indignity of displaying their human fallibility, they'll start forgetting their books, go off on long conversational tangents, and probably even say they only want conversation. It's all about an intense fear of ordinary failure, and of all the nationalities I teach, the only people I get who behave like that are German. Most of them aren't like that, but in my experience Germans are the only ethnic group that seems to include that personality type.
Another thing you have to consider is that "I want conversation lessons" often simply means "I don't want to do homework" or "I don't want to do anything that reminds me of school." This also seems peculiar to Germans in my experience.
I handle Germans like this in various ways. In all cases, I keep a running list of how they should have said various things during the conversation. At the end of the lesson, I hand this sheet to them. When I started doing this, I thought it was just a minor addition to the lesson, but it turns out that the students really value this, and it now bothers them if they don't get one at the end.
This kind of guy behaves like this due to a huge fear of humiliation, and your feedback has to show that saying it his way will result in more humiliation than saying it the right way. For this purpose, I often echo back whatever they said in German that means or sounds like the same thing. In your lesson, you had an exchange like this:
| Quote: | Al - I will come also, but I must look for the baby.
I - Oh, that's a pity. Could you not find a babysitter? |
In my lesson, it would have gone like this:
| Quote: | Al - I will come also, but I must look for the baby.
I [feigning shock] - Na, Sie müssen das Baby suchen? Verlieren Sie oft Ihr eigenes Kind?! |
There's nothing like this kind of reaction to motivate them to correct themselves. It works well if it doesn't look like sarcasm, but as if you've really misunderstood. So take care to look earnest. When it's just a grammar problem, and not a comprehension problem, I do what Amy does, and I give it back in German with similarly mangled grammar.
Since this guy is merely plugging English words into German grammar (a frequent result of being taught by the "communicative method"), then letting him talk the whole time, and giving him grammar lessons won't work. Psycholinguists know anyway that language is learned in big "chunks" that are then decomposed into grammar, not from vocabulary particles that are imposed on a grammatical structure. So what this guy really needs is a lot of collocations.
For this, you need to use a textbook that contains a lot of them, and you can also drill him on variants of the phrases and sentences that you write down on the "correct way to say things" sheet.
And don't underestimate the effectiveness of supposedly "discredited" teaching methods from previous decades! With these guys, old audio-lingual drills are very effective, and for some reason these Germans value the suffering that results. You can drill him from a venerable book like English Pattern Practices by Robert Lado, English Sentence Structure by Robert Krohn, or English Structure Practices by Keith S. Folse. One of my toughest customers calls this oral drill my "brainwashing", and he eventually started to demand it. It's a real struggle for him to reconfigure his brain to come up with the correct English sentence pattern, and he claims he can hear a little tiny German in his skull screaming as he dies a painful death. |
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Jamie (K)
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| Tue Dec 18, 2007 19:57 pm Conversation Classes |
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Jamie, thank you for this elaborate answer.
| Jamie (K) wrote: | | Ralf, I find that there's a specific reason why some Germans want conversation lessons rather than real instruction. A lot of them -- especially those in responsible positions -- have a pathologically huge fear of being wrong. If you give them a grammar exercise that contains the potential for them to make mistakes, they are absolutely mortified, and to avoid the indignity of displaying their human fallibility, they'll start forgetting their books, go off on long conversational tangents, and probably even say they only want conversation. It's all about an intense fear of ordinary failure, and of all the nationalities I teach, the only people I get who behave like that are German. Most of them aren't like that, but in my experience Germans are the only ethnic group that seems to include that personality type. |
My experience is limited to dealing with what feels like some 1,000 German students, one single course with Russians and a group of international PhD students. The Germans who behaved like my client Al were in responsible positions. All of them seemed happy enough whenever I just talked to them, but trying to help Al has proved most elusive.
Do you have any experience with Japanese learners?
| Jamie (K) wrote: | | Another thing you have to consider is that "I want conversation lessons" often simply means "I don't want to do homework" or "I don't want to do anything that reminds me of school." This also seems peculiar to Germans in my experience. |
Most Germans I've been teaching so far demand homework, but managers like Al don't. If you give them short homework assignments anyway, they usually don't do them. I've started introducing fun activities to help them develop good learning habits, but most managers stop doing them after a short while.
| Jamie (K) wrote: | | I handle Germans like this in various ways. In all cases, I keep a running list of how they should have said various things during the conversation. At the end of the lesson, I hand this sheet to them. When I started doing this, I thought it was just a minor addition to the lesson, but it turns out that the students really value this, and it now bothers them if they don't get one at the end. |
Someone has suggested this to me before but so far I have refrained from doing so due to reasons related to laziness. Do you think it sounds like a good idea to point out his mistakes and have him write the list? Actually, I'd say yeah 
| Jamie (K) wrote: | In my lesson, it would have gone like this:
| Quote: | Al - I will come also, but I must look for the baby.
I [feigning shock] - Na, Sie müssen das Baby suchen? Verlieren Sie oft Ihr eigenes Kind?! |
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This cure sounds promising, but a bit to radical for my taste. I don't usually deviate from speaking English, and I've always considered this the best performance incentive. But you're right, fainting surprise and acting confused and repeating his utterance all astounded could do the job.
| Jamie (K) wrote: | | There's nothing like this kind of reaction to motivate them to correct themselves. It works well if it doesn't look like sarcasm, but as if you've really misunderstood. So take care to look earnest. |
Earnest is my middle name 
| Jamie (K) wrote: | | Psycholinguists know anyway that language is learned in big "chunks" that are then decomposed into grammar, not from vocabulary particles that are imposed on a grammatical structure. So what this guy really needs is a lot of collocations. |
Absolutely. Him writing down unknown phrases may help.
| Jamie (K) wrote: | | And don't underestimate the effectiveness of supposedly "discredited" teaching methods from previous decades! With these guys, old audio-lingual drills are very effective, and for some reason these Germans value the suffering that results. You can drill him from a venerable book like English Pattern Practices by Robert Lado, English Sentence Structure by Robert Krohn, or English Structure Practices by Keith S. Folse. One of my toughest customers calls this oral drill my "brainwashing", and he eventually started to demand it. It's a real struggle for him to reconfigure his brain to come up with the correct English sentence pattern, and he claims he can hear a little tiny German in his skull screaming as he dies a painful death. |
Sounds like a viable suggestion, Jamie. I've just ordered English Pattern Practices on amazon. Was Dudemeister Folse a mentor of yours back in the day?
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Ralf
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| Tue Dec 18, 2007 20:45 pm Conversation Classes |
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| Ralf wrote: | | Do you have any experience with Japanese learners? |
Yes. They're usually really nice to work with, but because of the instructional style in Japan, they generally have very serious pronunciation deficiencies and don't know enough idioms to function. The one thing you absolutely have to do with them is make sure they write their pronunciation notes in IPA instead of Japanese syllabary. If you let them use that syllabic writing, while you're coaching the student to say "treat", and he's saying it, he's writing "turito" in his notes, and that's what he'll come back saying in the next lesson -- and by that time it will be lodged very stubbornly in his brain.
| Ralf wrote: | | Jamie (K) wrote: | | I handle Germans like this in various ways. In all cases, I keep a running list of how they should have said various things during the conversation. At the end of the lesson, I hand this sheet to them. When I started doing this, I thought it was just a minor addition to the lesson, but it turns out that the students really value this, and it now bothers them if they don't get one at the end. |
Someone has suggested this to me before but so far I have refrained from doing so due to reasons related to laziness. Do you think it sounds like a good idea to point out his mistakes and have him write the list? Actually, I'd say yeah |
Even a lazy person doesn't have to find this an annoyance. You just keep a running list going as he talks. It's easy to fit in. In my opinion it's better for you to write it than him. While you write it, you can have him say it a few times. Then later he looks at it and it's reinforced in his mind. Writing it yourself also saves you the necessity of having to coach him to write it correctly, so it saves time and keeps the two of you on task better.
| Ralf wrote: | | Jamie (K) wrote: | In my lesson, it would have gone like this:
| Quote: | Al - I will come also, but I must look for the baby.
I [feigning shock] - Na, Sie müssen das Baby suchen? Verlieren Sie oft Ihr eigenes Kind?! |
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This cure sounds promising, but a bit to radical for my taste. I don't usually deviate from speaking English, and I've always considered this the best performance incentive. But you're right, fainting surprise and acting confused and repeating his utterance all astounded could do the job. |
Believe me, if it's done good-naturedly, it gets the job done, and cumulatively over time it convinces him that he needs to speak better and it gives him a sense of when he's liable to come out with something that needs correcting.
| Ralf wrote: | | Absolutely. Him writing down unknown phrases may help. |
You write them and make him say them. Then give him the sheet.
| Ralf wrote: | | Was Dudemeister Folse a mentor of yours back in the day? |
I wasn't trained in ESL. I have a BFA in painting from a prestigious, high-pressure art school, and an MA in theoretical linguistics, specialized in phonology and syntax, from a state university. I taught myself to teach ESL by doing it, and by reading the teachers' notes in The Cambridge English Course, along with some theory and methods books. By the time I had to take an ESL teaching course or two, I was already good at teaching, took it by correspondence, and it mainly consisted of me doing pro forma assignments and the prof and me swapping ideas. So I didn't have any ESL mentors. Only phonology and syntax mentors. Plus, martial arts. A lot of my ESL teaching method was learned from the Japanese who taught me martial arts. |
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Jamie (K)
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