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 #17 (permalink) Sat Jan 05, 2008 0:48 am American candidates |
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| prezbucky wrote: |
Kerry was a waffler.
Ralf, John Kerry would tell you one opinion... then talk to me five minutes later and give a different view.
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As with most countries, it's a two horse race in the US too. I think the only leading politician or statesman I would have ever given my vote credulously was Tony Blair. But I couldn't, and with hindsight I can't say that I have too many regrets either.
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 Ralf
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| #18 (permalink) Sat Jan 05, 2008 0:54 am American candidates |
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not to speak for him, but i doubt Jamie would cut out all welfare for those who (if anyone does) deserve it -- chiefly those who cannot work to support themselves.
the reason we're reticent about socialism is both nominal (a deeply held dislike of all things Communist) and backed by anecdotal logic-based economic projections. The main thing is the tax burden being placed mainly on the shoulders of the productive members of the economy:
Less money would be available to start businesses, pay people who work in those businesses, open up jobs in those businesses (increasing unemployment), etc. This leads to less competition, higher consumer prices, lower product quality (higher prices + lower quality = lower value), higher unemployment, fewer jobs, fewer investment opportunities... and perhaps the worst thing it does is that it shits on the idea that people should have the right to control their own money -- that they should not be forced to fund another person's livelihood.
I think that personal charitable giving is great chiefly because it is voluntary and, as such, is given with a smile. A person taking lunch at a food bank (or whatever) can feel good that his lunch was provided by people who meant for him to eat that lunch, take advantage of a cot to sleep on, enjoy the warmth of being inside, and utilize the shower facilities (etc.).
Someone on welfare is getting his money from people who either don't mind that their money goes to such programs and from others who care a great deal that their hard-earned dollars are arbitrarily taken and assigned to others. There is no kindness in this. It's government-as-nanny and, imo, not the American way.
We ought to provide for those who can't provide for themselves, perhaps even -- for a little while -- for those who are laid off through no (or little) fault of their own.
Beyond that -- people need to get off their feet and earn their keep. IF you are trying to find a job and can't, okay -- I don't mind that person being helped.
In terms of socialized medicine -- is there an incentive for people to be doctors?
How did the doctors of socialized-medicine countries react when they were told they'd no longer be driving Lexus and M-B cars? This prospect intrigues me.
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| #19 (permalink) Sat Jan 05, 2008 1:07 am American candidates |
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| Ralf wrote: |
| It is probably also fair to say that most Europeans associate “America’s real conservatism” with McCarthyism, |
That's another piece of old information. When I was in school we were taught to think of McCarthy as an evil man and to laugh at people who thought the US was infiltrated by Soviet spies. Now documents made available by both the CIA and especially the KGB show that McCarthy was right, and that the Hollywood film studios AND the FDR administration were full of Soviet operatives. We now know their names and what they did.
| Ralf wrote: |
| ignorance of Kyoto protocols, |
Nobody was ignorant of the Kyoto protocols. They just chose not to sign them. However, many people are unaware of the fact that since Bush refused to sign them, the US has reduced its carbon emissions more than any country in Europe other than Germany. Not only that, but most of the European signatories of the Kyoto accords have violated the agreement and cut their emissions by less than promised or even increased them.
| Ralf wrote: |
| oil families running a nation and wars sanctioned by deliberate misinformation on weapons of mass destruction (or the potential threat/ capability of producing them). |
Oh, please, Ralf! Do you really believe EVERYTHING Michael Moore tells you? If Bush was lying, then that means that not just the CIA, but also British and Russian intelligence lied also. We also still don't know how extensive the WMD program was, because we wasted six months in the UN before we went in, and we have been too busy with the war to do a proper search. Saddam had plenty of time to have all that stuff hidden. Hans Blix never found anything, because he had Iraqi agents on his team making sure the surprise inspections weren't surprises. Go beyond Michael Moore in your investigation, and you'll find those things out.
Anyway, WMD were not the main reason we went into Iraq, and neither was oil. (Oil was Chirac's main motivation for trying to keep us out, though.)
| Ralf wrote: |
| Labelling the BBC and CNN leftist puts FOX right in the middle. But isn’t the middle usually thought to be neutral and impartial? |
There are no neutral or impartial media. Those don't exist.
Besides that, the BBC lies a lot. I used to use them as my main source of international news, but then when I heard how they distorted and fabricated facts about things in the US that I had direct experience of, I stopped trusting them.
| Ralf wrote: |
| Jamie (K) wrote: |
| Basically, Kerry was part of an Eastern political class that looks down on the ordinary people -- especially those in the South and in the interior of the country -- and on people who do not work in the government or nonprofit sectors. |
I get the pictures. Hard-working family men can inherit whatever they want unless they wear cowboy boots and put them on dining room tables on diplomatic receptions. |
You've lost me. I absolutely didn't understand what the heck you were trying to say with that.
| Ralf wrote: |
| Jamie (K) wrote: |
| One of my American friends who stayed behind in Europe calls his media environment there "a 24-hour propaganda bath". |
One of my American friends answered my question as to why he voted for Bush a second time by saying “I don’t know, man, whenever I see him on TV I have the feeling I can trust the guy.” Apparently, watching NBC, CBS, ABC and FOX can have an effect on voters. |
Sometimes one or two things a politician says are revealing enough that people feel they can make a character judgment. For me, that came months ago when I heard Giuliani remarking on a case where a Republican politician was being railroaded to prison by Congress. (They had accused him of something, found he was innocent of that, and then they kept searching until they found he didn't have a photographic memory.) Giuliani was so articulate and made such important, compassionate points about the case that I started to respect him. I started to like Bush better (although I never have really liked him) when the media tried to string him up for some drunk driving stops about 25 years earlier. He didn't play any denial or "I didn't inhale" games, like we were used to getting with Clinton. He just calmly admitted that it was all true, explained that part of his life, and told how he was able to change himself. Today my mind changed a bit on Obama when I heard how devoid of meaning his speech was, and my opinion of Huckabee rose when I heard what he had to say.
One thing that's necessary, though, is to examine very closely the smear campaigns that are launched against these candidates, because some of them have truth that should be considered, and some do not. Remember that during the last election, CBS brought out a document about Bush's military service that was quickly proven to be a complete, sloppy forgery.
| Ralf wrote: |
| I’d love to see France solving their social unrest. It’d be nice to see societies grow up and implement effective educational schemes. And it’d be nice to be able to walk through banlieus at night knowing that it’s safe because all the kids will have to go to work in the morning. |
I'd love to see the French police shoot back when those savages murder a cop. |
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| #20 (permalink) Sat Jan 05, 2008 1:07 am American candidates |
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| Jamie (K) wrote: |
Torsten, there's no such thing as "government charity", and people in Western Europe do NOT provide as much in charity as the Americans do. Large amounts of money are confiscated from productive Europeans who are given no choice as to what is done with that money. That is a forcible transfer of wealth, and that's not the same as charity.
Charity is free-will contribution of one's money, time or labor to a cause or person that the donor has freely chosen.
This shows that I was right to provide a clarification. The only problem was someone with a European thought pattern has trouble even understanding my clarification. That's how deep socialism goes. |
Jamie, you are probably right -- I need to learn more about the US. So could you please explain who you classify as "poor and less fortunate"? Who are the people receiving all the private charity money in the US?
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| #21 (permalink) Sat Jan 05, 2008 1:11 am American candidates |
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| prezbucky wrote: |
| How did the doctors of socialized-medicine countries react when they were told they'd no longer be driving Lexus and M-B cars? This prospect intrigues me. |
A similar situation occured in Germany last year. The public health sector introduced major cuts for 90 per cent of all doctors, and quite a few of them went on strike (causing underprovision of medical service in parts of the country). In the end, a mediation committee reached an agreement after over a month of protracted negotiations.
They still drive mercs and jags.
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| #22 (permalink) Sat Jan 05, 2008 1:19 am American candidates |
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| Ralf wrote: |
| prezbucky wrote: |
| How did the doctors of socialized-medicine countries react when they were told they'd no longer be driving Lexus and M-B cars? This prospect intrigues me. |
A similar situation occured in Germany last year. The public health sector introduced major cuts for 90 per cent of all doctors, and quite a few of them went on strike (causing underprovision of medical service in parts of the country). In the end, a mediation committee reached an agreement after over a month of protracted negotiations.
They still drive mercs and jags. |
But many of them have moved to Switzerland, where the system is economically more favorable to them.
Why would they be driving mercs? Do they sell Mercury cars in Germany? No way! |
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| #23 (permalink) Sat Jan 05, 2008 1:32 am American candidates |
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| Jamie (K) wrote: |
| Oh, please, Ralf! Do you really believe EVERYTHING Michael Moore tells you? |
Who is Michael Moore 
| Jamie (K) wrote: |
| There are no neutral or impartial media. Those don't exist. |
That's right. But...
| Jamie (K) wrote: |
| Ralf wrote: |
| I get the pictures. Hard-working family men can inherit whatever they want unless they wear cowboy boots and put them on dining-room tables on diplomatic receptions. |
You've lost me. I absolutely didn't understand what the heck you were trying to say with that. |
I had this Aznar visit in mind where the two of them were sitting on a couch on Prairie Chapel exposing the soles of their shoes to the cameras. I was in Spain at the time, and this scene caused media controversy for weeks (as did Bush calling his Spanish guest Señor Anzar repeatedly).
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| #24 (permalink) Sat Jan 05, 2008 1:35 am American candidates |
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| Jamie (K) wrote: |
| Ralf wrote: |
| prezbucky wrote: |
| How did the doctors of socialized-medicine countries react when they were told they'd no longer be driving Lexus and M-B cars? This prospect intrigues me. |
A similar situation occured in Germany last year. The public health sector introduced major cuts for 90 per cent of all doctors, and quite a few of them went on strike (causing underprovision of medical service in parts of the country). In the end, a mediation committee reached an agreement after over a month of protracted negotiations.
They still drive mercs and jags. |
But many of them have moved to Switzerland, where the system is economically more favorable to them.
Why would they be driving mercs? Do they sell Mercury cars in Germany? No way! |
A merc is a Mercedes.
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| #25 (permalink) Sat Jan 05, 2008 2:05 am American candidates |
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| prezbucky wrote: |
| not to speak for him, but i doubt Jamie would cut out all welfare for those who (if anyone does) deserve it -- chiefly those who cannot work to support themselves. |
You are right Tom, Jamie isn't saying that he wants to cut out all welfare for those who need it. I think he is trying to tell us that Europeans don't understand the concept of "charity" and that Americans give more money in private charity than Europeans do. I absolutely agree with him. However, I still think that the European and the American system are very similar: They give money and other support to those who cannot provide for themselves. Yes, Americans give more money in private charity than Europeans but does automatically mean either system is better than the other? I think they are just slightly different. What counts is the result: The living standard of a country and how "human" a society is.
| prezbucky wrote: |
| I think that personal charitable giving is great chiefly because it is voluntary and, as such, is given with a smile. A person taking lunch at a food bank (or whatever) can feel good that his lunch was provided by people who meant for him to eat that lunch, take advantage of a cot to sleep on, enjoy the warmth of being inside, and utilize the shower facilities (etc.). |
Tom, would you say that the American society would be better off without any welfare system? I mean, do you think it would be possible to provide for the "poor and less fortunate" (as Jamie puts it) entirely through "personal charity"? Also, how exactly do you define "personal charity"? If a church or small community organizes a food bank, is that "personal charity" or is it organized charity? If the food bank is funded by money that is collected from the church members, would that still qualify as "voluntary" or is only "half-voluntary" since some of the church members don't know every single person who gets food through the food bank?
| prezbucky wrote: |
| Beyond that -- people need to get off their feet and earn their keep. IF you are trying to find a job and can't, okay -- I don't mind that person being helped. |
Sounds like a great idea. The question is how do you define "trying to find a job and can't"? Let's say a person is trying to find a job and can't (by your definition), what happens next? Where does that person get money from and how much? What if you suddenly have more than just one person who is "trying to find a job and can't" in your community? I think that's where personal charity reaches its limits or does it not?
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| #26 (permalink) Sat Jan 05, 2008 3:12 am American candidates |
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| Ralf wrote: |
| I had this Aznar visit in mind where the two of them were sitting on a couch on Prairie Chapel exposing the soles of their shoes to the cameras. I was in Spain at the time, and this scene caused media controversy for weeks (as did Bush calling his Spanish guest Señor Anzar repeatedly). |
It didn't make the media here, because there's nothing wrong with what they were doing. After all, there were no Arabs in the room to get insulted. It's like the anger that raged in the Czech Republic over Bush shaking hands with their president in the winter while he still had his gloves on. So what's wrong with that? The Czechs were furious at him, but nobody here knew about it or cared. The Bohunks said that Bush should have been advised that that is an insult in their country, but nobody felt it necessary to point out that it's not an insult in OUR country and that maybe Europeans should be more understanding of cultural diversity.
And if Mr. Aznar is from Spain, doesn't that make him Señor Aznar? Isn't that what some of the British broadsheets would call him? The same ones that refer to Frau Merkel and Monsieur Sarkozy? Explain to me what's wrong with calling the president of Spain "Señor Aznar". After all, Señor Aznar was most certainly calling him "Mr. Bush"!
Foreigners insult us with cultural gaffes all the time -- especially the Germans -- and we get over it. Why does every American have to know every little nuance of every culture in the world?
Now I'm thinking about how the left made fun of Mr. Bush for a slip of the tongue he once made, when he called Hispanics "hispanos". What they didn't seem to recognize was that their favorite "rube" to pick on is at least bilingual, and he'd slipped and gotten his languages mixed up. He'd simply said the word in Spanish. |
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| #27 (permalink) Sat Jan 05, 2008 3:12 am American candidates |
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| Ralf wrote: |
| A merc is a Mercedes. |
Of course, I know. I was just playing with you. |
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| #28 (permalink) Sat Jan 05, 2008 5:37 am American candidates |
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Torsten, in my opinion the European system IS inferior and unjust. One reason is that it's achieved by forced confiscation of private money and property. Another is that it supports people to such a high level that it blunts their initiative. It blunts both the initiative to work and the initiative to give charity. When you get a society where engineers will stay home for years rather than do a job they consider to be beneath their dignity, there's a problem, and what's supporting them is not charity.
Private charity does not necessarily mean individual charity. Private individuals can voluntarily form charitable groups and societies to provide assistance to the poor. These are still private and voluntary. My church DOES run a food bank, and every single particle of that food is provided willingly by people who want to donate it. Churches cannot force people to donate, and if they try, any individual can leave and go to a church that doesn't require such a donation. Most important, unlike governments, churches can't arrest people, confiscate their property and put them in prison for not donating.
As for what would happen if there were no government assistance, you simply need to look at those parts of the US where the majority of the people are ashamed to take government assistance. Everyone is still taken care of, but it's done by families, friend and churches. However, once large-scale socialism has been instituted and a segment of society has gotten used to it, it would be very hard to change their habits back so that they will sacrifice and take care of people.
You can get a good education in free market economics from columns by Dr. Walter Williams, who is rather famous here in the US. Here are some of his better articles on this subject.
Not yours to give
By Walter E. Williams
http://townhall.com/columnists/WalterEWilliams/2005/02/09/not_yours_to_give
Dependency on government
By Walter E. Williams
http://townhall.com/columnists/WalterEWilliams/2005/07/06/dependency_on_government
Should we copy Europe?
By Walter E. Williams
http://townhall.com/columnists/WalterEWilliams/2006/11/22/should_we_copy_europe |
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Jamie (K)
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| #30 (permalink) Sat Jan 05, 2008 14:02 pm American candidates |
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| Jamie (K) wrote: |
| And if Mr. Aznar is from Spain, doesn't that make him Señor Aznar? Isn't that what some of the British broadsheets would call him? The same ones that refer to Frau Merkel and Monsieur Sarkozy? Explain to me what's wrong with calling the president of Spain "Señor Aznar". After all, Señor Aznar was most certainly calling him "Mr. Bush"! |
Jamie, "Señor" wasn't the problem but calling Aznar "Anzar" was (it sounded like [@nzr]).
| Quote: |
I was in Spain at the time, and this scene caused media controversy for weeks (as did Bush calling his Spanish guest Señor Anzar repeatedly).
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