|
|
 #2 (permalink) Sat Feb 16, 2008 14:44 pm Pop music made in Germany? |
|
|
| Torsten wrote: |
Hi,
I think we can all agree that the Germans somehow are not very creative when it comes to producing movies, music or any other form of entertainment. It's very rare case that a German speaking artist gains popularity abroad. Now, the the following might be one of the rare exceptions. Please google "mean man live", listen to the song on YouTube and let me know what you think it.
Thanks,
Torsten |
Hi Torsten,
I can't say I agree with any of these statements. There is quite a number of good German cinema film productions, but German television usually poses an insult to the aesthetic sense. The crux of the matter with good German music is that it is performed in German, so the chances of making it big abroad are rather limited.
As for the girl-singer you like, I don't want to talk you out of it. Music is good as long as people like it. In my opinion, however, there's only a single white girl walking this earth who matches both voice and soul of black singers.
_________________
Test of English as a Foreign Language
TOEFL Preparation & TOEFL Vocabulary
Learn more: How to Become an English Teacher |
|
 Ralf
Language Coach
Joined: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 1485
Location: EU (Ireland and Germany)
|
|
| #3 (permalink) Sat Feb 16, 2008 14:56 pm Pop music made in Germany? |
|
|
Hi Ralf,
Why would the language of the lyrics play any role? Are you saying that the Germans understand any of the lyrics of the many English language pop songs they listen to day in day out? If this were the case, there wouldn't be any demand for the German dubbing services, they just could show all the American movies and TV programs in the original versions like they do in many other countries.
_________________
Test Of English for International Communication
TOEIC Preparation & TOEIC Vocabulary |
|
Torsten
Learning Coach
Joined: 25 Sep 2003
Posts: 10051
Location: EU
|
 |
| #4 (permalink) Sat Feb 16, 2008 18:48 pm Pop music made in Germany? |
|
|
Hi Torsten,
Music lyrics are either in English or in the particular language of a country.
| Torsten wrote: |
Why would the language of the lyrics play any role?
|
You'd only have to switch on the radio to know that language is a decisive factor. In Germany, you find songs in English and German, in Italy in English and Italian, in Poland in English and Polish etc.
| Torsten wrote: |
Are you saying that the Germans understand any of the lyrics of the many English language pop songs they listen to day in day out?
|
No, but it's in English. And English is hip. In Germany, the advertising industry uses English slogans for every other product. People are not even necessarily meant to understand it, it just needs to sound cool.
_________________
Test of English as a Foreign Language
TOEFL Preparation & TOEFL Vocabulary
Learn more: How to Become an English Teacher |
|
Ralf
Language Coach
Joined: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 1485
Location: EU (Ireland and Germany)
|
|
| #5 (permalink) Sat Feb 16, 2008 19:23 pm Pop music made in Germany? |
|
|
| Ralf wrote: |
| Music lyrics are either in English or in the particular language of a country. |
The only German band that seems to be more popular abroad than at home is Rammstein and their lyrics are exclusively in German.
| Ralf wrote: |
| You'd only have to switch on the radio to know that language is a decisive factor. In Germany, you find songs in English and German, in Italy in English and Italian, in Poland in English and Polish etc. |
I would not compare east European countries such as Poland with Germany. The vast majority of pop songs in east European countries like Poland or Russia are produced at home and the lyrics are in their native language while the Germans are listening almost exclusively to pop music made in the UK or US.
| Ralf wrote: |
| No, but it's in English. And English is hip. In Germany, the advertising industry uses English slogans for every other product. People are not even necessarily meant to understand it, it just needs to sound cool. |
So who are the great German bands and why are they singing in German if English is so cool? As for advertising slogans, I do think that they are supposed to carry a certain message that the potential buyers should understand. Why else invest so much money in these slogans? If advertising language just needed to sound cool any teenager could work at an ad agency.
_________________
Test Of English for International Communication
TOEIC Preparation & TOEIC Vocabulary |
|
Torsten
Learning Coach
Joined: 25 Sep 2003
Posts: 10051
Location: EU
|
|
| #6 (permalink) Sat Feb 16, 2008 23:38 pm Pop music made in Germany? |
|
|
| As I always aver, people have different tastes and various things suit them. Not only is this applicable to music, but also to movies, places to stroll, pictures, and basically to all things that come down to variation. Some prefer classical music, others hip-hop, whilst third enjoy listening to metal. Personally, I do not adore this song very much. However, I do not agree with the statement that Germany does not produce quality music. There are some quite good pieces out there worth listening to. |
|
SkiIucK
I'm here quite often ;-)
Joined: 09 Oct 2006
Posts: 744
|
|
| #7 (permalink) Sat Feb 16, 2008 23:49 pm Pop music made in Germany? |
|
|
Hi Dimitar,
Would you give us some examples of quite good pieces of German music, please? As for having different tastes, there is no point in trying to argue the obvious.
What I was referring to is the fact that the majority of Germans are consuming entertainment products made in the US or the UK rather than in Germany.
Why do you think is this?
Thanks,
Torsten
_________________
Test Of English for International Communication
TOEIC Preparation & TOEIC Vocabulary |
|
Torsten
Learning Coach
Joined: 25 Sep 2003
Posts: 10051
Location: EU
|
|
| #8 (permalink) Sun Feb 17, 2008 10:59 am Pop music made in Germany? |
|
|
Hi, Torsten!
The brightest example that comes to my mind at the moment are Rammstein. Also, Alex C.
See, the USA litereally "showers" new pieces every day, thus making it nearly impossible for other, "smaller" countries to put a hand onto the market. There are a number of great artists in every country, I am sure. But it's the quantity of USA releases that has created an impassable barrier for them to "protrude". Everything is flooded with USA productions, which are sometimes of really bad quality. For instance, I daily check for new titles in various torrent sites. And in 90 % of the cases I see a few new productions made in the USA, and 90 % of them are complete crap.
With this post I do not intend to offend anyone living there, I just state my observations.
Regards,
Dimitar |
|
SkiIucK
I'm here quite often ;-)
Joined: 09 Oct 2006
Posts: 744
|
|
| #9 (permalink) Sun Feb 17, 2008 14:47 pm Pop music made in Germany? |
|
|
| Torsten wrote: |
| The only German band that seems to be more popular abroad than at home is Rammstein and their lyrics are exclusively in German. |
Rammstein is an incredible exception. Singing with a Hitler accent and supporting it with distorted guitars seems to hit a gap (at least in the 90s).
| Torsten wrote: |
| I would not compare east European countries such as Poland with Germany. The vast majority of pop songs in east European countries like Poland or Russia are produced at home and the lyrics are in their native language while the Germans are listening lmost exclusively to pop music made in the UK or US. |
That's right. Pretty much like the Dutch, Scandinavians and Italians. All I was saying was that those people only listen to pop music in their own language and English. I'm pretty sure that less that 1 out of 10 people in Italy speak English, but their charts probably consist of 50% English songs.
| Torsten wrote: |
| So who are the great German bands and why are they singing in German if English is so cool? |
It's a new German wave (Deutsche Welle). For the last 2 years or so, there have been times when there were more German songs in the top 10 then English ones. Personally, I like "Silbermond", "Wir sind Helden", "Juli" and "Revolverheld". But I have never bought any of their albums.
| Torsten wrote: |
| As for advertising slogans, I do think that they are supposed to carry a certain message that the potential buyers should understand. Why else invest so much money in these slogans? If advertising language just needed to sound cool any teenager could work at an ad agency. |
That's very true indeed. It's crazy, isn't it? Every other slogan is in English, and people just don't get it. You walk into a department store and all you see is big red "SALE" signs. The other day I overheard a granny saying to another "Schau mal, schon wieder [za:lə]!". She obviously new that what sounded like the German river Saale meant a price reduction 
_________________
Test of English as a Foreign Language
TOEFL Preparation & TOEFL Vocabulary
Learn more: How to Become an English Teacher |
|
Ralf
Language Coach
Joined: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 1485
Location: EU (Ireland and Germany)
|
|
| #10 (permalink) Sun Feb 17, 2008 15:10 pm Pop music made in Germany? |
|
|
Torsten, I don't think that girl would make it more than halfway through the "American Idol" singing contest, if she made it that far.
I disagree with you about Germans not being very creative when producing various forms of entertainment. It's simply not true. Every year or so, there's at least one German film that achieves outstanding success in the US among those Americans who are willing to read subtitles. German novelists are very popular in the English-speaking world, if their work gets translated.
As for German pop music, it's not that Germans aren't creative or good at it. They have some other factors working against them:
-- Distribution and promotion. The distributional and promotional apparatus of the pop music business is centralized in just a few places in the US and the UK. If you're not one of theirs, they usually won't take an interest in you. German groups are outsiders in both of those places, so they don't get anywhere. American groups that are not from LA or New York have the same problems now. Before the 1980s, it was possible for American groups to get air play and therefore become successful from various places, mainly Philadelphia, Detroit, Atlanta, and even Mussel Shoals, Alabama. However, since that time, the broadcasting industry has consolidated, and local programming directors can't necessarily play what they want. The playlists are mostly determined in some central location, usually LA, and so local groups don't stand a chance.
-- Store placement. In the US, anyway, if the lyrics of a song are not in English, or they're sung with a foreign accent, the CD or MP3 file is classified under "World Music" or "Ethnic Music", and it never gets into the pop music section. So Herbert Grönemeyer will be stuck in with the Oktoberfest drinking songs and German polkas. Eros Ramazzotti was always in with the Italian folk music for old people. The only parts of the "World Music" section that any significant number of people look at are the Irish, Reggae and "Música Latina" ones. Having your CD or MP3 file in any of the other ones is like being banished to Siberia.
-- No English or bad English. Continental Europeans may be used to listening to music in other languages, and not understanding the lyrics, but native English speakers aren't accustomed to that, and most of them won't listen to lyrics that they don't understand. The only exceptions are when someone has an outrageously powerful singing style, like Edith Piaf did.
-- A different esthetic. The American songs that get popular in continental Europe aren't necessarily the ones that get popular in the US, because different styles are favored in one place than in the other. One reason German groups don't make it abroad can be that their style doesn't go over in other countries, and not because their music's not good.
Also, don't forget that in many of the countries that appear to be "good" at pop music and have a lot of popular groups, they actually have government agencies devoted to cultivating and promoting local pop music acts. Sweden and Ireland are two such countries. Germany doesn't have this, as far as I know. |
|
Jamie (K)
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 5332
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
|
|
| #11 (permalink) Mon Feb 18, 2008 22:42 pm Pop music made in Germany? |
|
|
| Jamie (K) wrote: |
| Every year or so, there's at least one German film that achieves outstanding success in the US among those Americans who are willing to read subtitles. German novelists are very popular in the English-speaking world, if their work gets translated. |
Really? Which German movies and novels reached international success in 2007?
_________________
Test Of English for International Communication
TOEIC Preparation & TOEIC Vocabulary |
|
Torsten
Learning Coach
Joined: 25 Sep 2003
Posts: 10051
Location: EU
|
|
| #12 (permalink) Mon Feb 18, 2008 23:06 pm Pop music made in Germany? |
|
|
| Torsten wrote: |
| Jamie (K) wrote: |
| Every year or so, there's at least one German film that achieves outstanding success in the US among those Americans who are willing to read subtitles. German novelists are very popular in the English-speaking world, if their work gets translated. |
Really? Which German movies and novels reached international success in 2007? |
The only one I can think of off hand is "The Lives of Others". I can't remember any others that got popular here that year, but there's usually one every year, at least. Note that when I say "popular", I mean as popular as a subtitled film can get in the US. Most Americans hate subtitles and dubbing, and no matter how good a film is, many of them won't watch it if it's subtitled or dubbed. And most of those movies make their greatest success on DVD. Many of them last much longer on the market than typical American ones do.
I'll have to say, though, that there is a reason why Americans aren't that likely to go see German films, and to a lesser degree French ones. I discovered this myself in a rather surprising way. I was watching a really funny German comedy ("Advertising Rules"), and somewhere along the line, the main character messed up his relationship with his girlfriend, and she wouldn't talk to him. To my great surprise, I was going to shut the DVD player off, because my first thought was, "This is a German movie. The character has lost his girlfriend. Now it's going to turn from a great comedy to a depressing tragedy, and he's going to kill himself. I've seen enough European films like that, and I don't need to sit through another European's suicide."
I was startled by my own thoughts, and I didn't shut off the DVD player. The movie didn't turn dark like that after all, but based on experience, I was sure it would. |
|
Jamie (K)
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 5332
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
|
|
| #13 (permalink) Tue Feb 19, 2008 11:48 am Pop music made in Germany? |
|
|
| Jamie (K) wrote: |
| Torsten, I don't think that girl would make it more than halfway through the "American Idol" singing contest, if she made it that far. |
Well, in Europe her song has been holding a top ten chart position which either means that Europeans and Americans have completely different tastes or it simply means that so far nobody knows the song in the US.
| Jamie (K) wrote: |
| I disagree with you about Germans not being very creative when producing various forms of entertainment. It's simply not true. Every year or so, there's at least one German film that achieves outstanding success in the US among those Americans who are willing to read subtitles. German novelists are very popular in the English-speaking world, if their work gets translated. |
In your opinion, where are the Germans when it comes to creating such entertainment products and services like new sports and new sport devices, software games, soap operas and TV shows, restaurants?
| Jamie (K) wrote: |
| -- Distribution and promotion. The distributional and promotional apparatus of the pop music business is centralized in just a few places in the US and the UK. If you're not one of theirs, they usually won't take an interest in you. German groups are outsiders in both of those places, so they don't get anywhere. American groups that are not from LA or New York have the same problems now. Before the 1980s, it was possible for American groups to get air play and therefore become successful from various places, mainly Philadelphia, Detroit, Atlanta, and even Mussel Shoals, Alabama. However, since that time, the broadcasting industry has consolidated, and local programming directors can't necessarily play what they want. The playlists are mostly determined in some central location, usually LA, and so local groups don't stand a chance. |
With the arrival of the Internet both distribution and promotion of pop music have changed. I'm sure you have heard of the "long tail principle" which basically describes the fact that on the Internet there is no shortage of distribution and promotion capacity. Companies like SliceThePie are giving any band the opportunity to promote their songs to the audience they deserve.
| Jamie (K) wrote: |
| -- Store placement. In the US, anyway, if the lyrics of a song are not in English, or they're sung with a foreign accent, the CD or MP3 file is classified under "World Music" or "Ethnic Music", and it never gets into the pop music section. So Herbert Grönemeyer will be stuck in with the Oktoberfest drinking songs and German polkas. Eros Ramazzotti was always in with the Italian folk music for old people. The only parts of the "World Music" section that any significant number of people look at are the Irish, Reggae and "Música Latina" ones. Having your CD or MP3 file in any of the other ones is like being banished to Siberia. |
Again, you are talking about the conventional way of distributing and promoting music and entertainment but this industry has already changed dramatically. Especially the younger generations are using the Internet to buy music and other audio files so tradional store placement is becoming less and less important.
| Jamie (K) wrote: |
| -- No English or bad English. Continental Europeans may be used to listening to music in other languages, and not understanding the lyrics, but native English speakers aren't accustomed to that, and most of them won't listen to lyrics that they don't understand. The only exceptions are when someone has an outrageously powerful singing style, like Edith Piaf did. |
There are certain music genres where the lyrics don't play any significant role. Are you really saying that anyone is interested in the lyrics of Rihanna's songs? And what holds German bands back from singing in impeccable English?
| Jamie (K) wrote: |
| Also, don't forget that in many of the countries that appear to be "good" at pop music and have a lot of popular groups, they actually have government agencies devoted to cultivating and promoting local pop music acts. Sweden and Ireland are two such countries. Germany doesn't have this, as far as I know. |
Are you saying that the German government would be capable of promoting Germany as a top country in the international entertainment industry?
Somehow I have the impression that there simply are certain nations who are better at producing music and entertainment than others. For some reason I'm not convinced that Germany belongs to the world's entertainment producers. We are known for our cars, medicine and tools but for our music and movies?
_________________
Test Of English for International Communication
TOEIC Preparation & TOEIC Vocabulary |
|
Torsten
Learning Coach
Joined: 25 Sep 2003
Posts: 10051
Location: EU
|
|
| #14 (permalink) Tue Feb 19, 2008 13:21 pm Pop music made in Germany? |
|
|
| Torsten wrote: |
| Well, in Europe her song has been holding a top ten chart position which either means that Europeans and Americans have completely different tastes or it simply means that so far nobody knows the song in the US. |
It means that Europeans and Americans have different taste, and that Europeans can't hear that her English is a little odd. Plus, she's kind of frumpy, and she has what to Americans would be a funny name. For various superficial and profound reasons, she'd never make it here.
| Torsten wrote: |
| In your opinion, where are the Germans when it comes to creating such entertainment products and services like new sports and new sport devices, software games, soap operas and TV shows, restaurants? |
Where they are is hampered by government red tape before they get started. A person with an idea has to have too much paperwork and too much money to start the business up, and most of those innovations are started small by people who have little or no money. With TV shows, the problem is language again, because in the English-speaking world people reject dubbing and subtitles.
| Torsten wrote: |
| Jamie (K) wrote: |
| -- Distribution and promotion. The distributional and promotional apparatus of the pop music business is centralized in just a few places in the US and the UK. If you're not one of theirs, they usually won't take an interest in you. German groups are outsiders in both of those places, so they don't get anywhere. American groups that are not from LA or New York have the same problems now. Before the 1980s, it was possible for American groups to get air play and therefore become successful from various places, mainly Philadelphia, Detroit, Atlanta, and even Mussel Shoals, Alabama. However, since that time, the broadcasting industry has consolidated, and local programming directors can't necessarily play what they want. The playlists are mostly determined in some central location, usually LA, and so local groups don't stand a chance. |
With the arrival of the Internet both distribution and promotion of pop music have changed. I'm sure you have heard of the "long tail principle" which basically describes the fact that on the Internet there is no shortage of distribution and promotion capacity. Companies like SliceThePie are giving any band the opportunity to promote their songs to the audience they deserve. |
Yes, those channels exist, but that "long tail principle" is still pie in the sky. People still mainly hear about the music they buy from the radio, especially in societies like the US and Canada, where people spend so much time in their cars and each city has at least 25 radio stations. Word of mouth among friends is influential to some extent, but for some reason, although the Internet is big in selling music, it's not that big yet in determining which music people choose to buy.
| Torsten wrote: |
| Jamie (K) wrote: |
| -- Store placement. In the US, anyway, if the lyrics of a song are not in English, or they're sung with a foreign accent, the CD or MP3 file is classified under "World Music" or "Ethnic Music", and it never gets into the pop music section. So Herbert Grönemeyer will be stuck in with the Oktoberfest drinking songs and German polkas. Eros Ramazzotti was always in with the Italian folk music for old people. The only parts of the "World Music" section that any significant number of people look at are the Irish, Reggae and "Música Latina" ones. Having your CD or MP3 file in any of the other ones is like being banished to Siberia. |
Again, you are talking about the conventional way of distributing and promoting music and entertainment but this industry has already changed dramatically. Especially the younger generations are using the Internet to buy music and other audio files so tradional store placement is becoming less and less important. |
I had already thought of your point before I wrote those words. Traditional store placement is still important, because online music stores are organized like traditional stores. I've gone into iTunes US and looked up some American pop singers. They're listed under "Pop". Then I went in and looked up some European pop singers who don't sing in English. They're under "World", which means they're in the same section as the Swiss yodelers and Tuvan throat singers. It's just like in a regular brick-and-mortar store, and unless the shopper already knows the name of the artist and does a search on it, he won't find those singers by searching the pop section.
| Torsten wrote: |
| Jamie (K) wrote: |
| -- No English or bad English. Continental Europeans may be used to listening to music in other languages, and not understanding the lyrics, but native English speakers aren't accustomed to that, and most of them won't listen to lyrics that they don't understand. The only exceptions are when someone has an outrageously powerful singing style, like Edith Piaf did. |
There are certain music genres where the lyrics don't play any significant role. Are you really saying that anyone is interested in the lyrics of Rihanna's songs? And what holds German bands back from singing in impeccable English? |
There are certain music styles in which the lyrics don't play any significant role to a EUROPEAN. In Rihanna's songs, the lyrics may not seem important, but if you gave the same music to an American or Canadian and the lyrics were in, say, Italian or German, the person would reject it on the grounds that they can't understand the lyrics. Those unimportant, uninteresting lyrics are an important part of an integral whole, and if one piece of the whole thing is wrong, people don't like it. It would be like if someone gave you something that looked, tasted and smelled like an orange but had the texture of a broiled steak. Even though everything else is okay about it, the texture would make you decide there was something wrong with it, and you probably wouldn't eat it. That's what happens with Anglophones when you switch the language of the music on them. Continental Europeans don't react that way.
I don't know what holds a German band back from singing in impeccable English. You're German, so you tell me. I can tell you, though, that even when the Germans get the English right, they still mess up some cultural cue, as can be seen when German agencies make advertisements for the American market. Americans always find them spooky.
| Torsten wrote: |
| Are you saying that the German government would be capable of promoting Germany as a top country in the international entertainment industry? |
Well, the Swedish government did it. The Irish government did, and so did a couple of others. I don't agree with the idea that the government should be involved in something like that, but in countries where it has, it has given those industries a boost.
| Torsten wrote: |
| We are known for our cars, medicine and tools but for our music and movies? |
It's not because Germans CAN'T produce those things, but because there are extraneous factors suppressing that type of creativity there. |
|
Jamie (K)
I'm a Communicator ;-)
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 5332
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
|
|
| #15 (permalink) Tue Feb 19, 2008 16:54 pm Pop music made in Germany? |
|
|
| Jamie (K) wrote: |
| Torsten wrote: |
| Well, in Europe her song has been holding a top ten chart position which either means that Europeans and Americans have completely different tastes or it simply means that so far nobody knows the song in the US. |
It means that Europeans and Americans have different taste, and that Europeans can't hear that her English is a little odd. Plus, she's kind of frumpy, and she has what to Americans would be a funny name. For various superficial and profound reasons, she'd never make it here. |
I couldn't agree more. Europeans (continentals) can usually not tell the difference when it comes to genuine English (language) sounds. This girl sounds a little bit American, but so do a few of my students who've spent a year in Massachusetts or Michigan or Washington State and think that their accent is the real thing now, but it hardly ever is. One of my students mentioned an 80s Band called "Camouflage" and claimed that their English was very English indeed and that the lyrics to the song The Great Commandmet were very poetic as well. But well, listen for yourself.
To me it sounds like a wannabe Depeche Mode People are People, and I'm pretty sure that the Depeche Mode song was there first. That's probably Europe's problem - by trying to sound like someone else, they lack both authenticity and quality. It's one thing to say "Hey, this girl could almost be American!" or "Hey, that Band Wir sind Helden are truly original!". But they are a German original, and that's why there is little chance that they meet international demands. Fair play, why should they?
Most British or Irish bands never make it big in America either (and vice versa) because of different market demands. There are exceptions like U2 or one hit wanders like this German dude Lou Bega (Mambo No 5), but usually European music is no potential threat to conquer America. You only need to look at endeavours of Oasis, Robbie Williams and the likes.
If you take the films "Life of Others", "Run, Lola, Run" or "The Downfall", you can see that there is creative potential. "The Downfall"'s international success came as no surprise considering its vast production costs and Hitler's perpetual market potential, but the other two films convince by means of creative innovation.
_________________
Test of English as a Foreign Language
TOEFL Preparation & TOEFL Vocabulary
Learn more: How to Become an English Teacher |
|
Ralf
Language Coach
Joined: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 1485
Location: EU (Ireland and Germany)
|
|
|
| Looking for a little assistance | Bad starts |
