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 #32 (permalink) Tue Mar 11, 2008 14:29 pm Usage of "Who all" |
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| Molly wrote: |
<Foreign learners are often unable to perform or even comprehend these switches because their level of acquired English is functionally flat.">
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| People in India can talk any way they want. They can replace every form of tag question with a single "is it?" if they want. They can change the past tense of "go" from "went" to "was go" if they want. They can use such deviant pronunciation that no native speaker can understand them, if they want. They can do all kinds of things to the English language in India if they want to, but if their goal is clear communication in an international context, then they have to drop all those eccentricities and adhere to the general standard. |
Which could leave the rest of us, i.e. non-Indians, more functionally flat, right? |
You've lost the argument. Just give up. |
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Jamie (K)
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| #33 (permalink) Tue Mar 11, 2008 17:36 pm Usage of "Who all" |
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| Molly wrote: |
| You believe it is incorrect in Indian English? |
According to the following Wikipedia entry 'Indian English' is simply regarded as 'incorrect English' so why bother with it?
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Formal British English is preferred over the layman's Indian English in educated Indian circles and higher Indian writing. Middle and upper-class Indians, especially those with greater and wider exposure to the West through books, electronic media (such as television or movies) and travel, tend to speak grammatically-standard English.
What is characterised as Indian English is not considered "correct usage" by either government-related institutions (such as offices and schools) or educated Indians who prize 'proper' English. Indian schools still teach grammar from (frequently older) British textbooks like Wren & Martin or J. C. Nesfield (1898): the grammar of higher British English is considered the only correct one. Efforts by the Oxford University Press to publish a dictionary of Indian English resulted in abject failure since customers in India preferred the 'proper' British dictionary. |
TOEIC listening, talks: A company president introduces the keynote speaker at a corporate event |
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Torsten
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Molly
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| #35 (permalink) Wed Mar 12, 2008 10:33 am Usage of "Who all" |
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Hi Molly,
I think we can swap quotes back and forth until the cows come out. The initial question was grammar related and at some point the discussion started to take a slightly different direction moving into sociolinguistics. It's probably best if you open a new thread on the different varieties of English with a focus on Indian and Nigerian English. Since English is a second language to me, I'm concentrating on learning the language of those people I want to emulate. Maybe there is a certain percentage of ESL learners who instead of UK or US English want to learn Nigerian, Indian or Creole English and you might be able to help them achieve their goal.
TOEIC listening, talks: A radio commercial for a herbal sleeping pill |
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Torsten
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| #36 (permalink) Wed Mar 12, 2008 10:42 am Usage of "Who all" |
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OK, Torsten. Thanks for the exchange of views.
One thing, how do you go about this?
| Quote: |
| I'm concentrating on learning the language of those people I want to emulate. |
Which "models" do you use? |
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Molly
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Torsten
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| #38 (permalink) Wed Mar 12, 2008 11:25 am Usage of "Who all" |
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| Torsten wrote: |
| I think we can swap quotes back and forth until the cows come out. |
Till the cows come home. |
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Jamie (K)
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Torsten
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| #40 (permalink) Wed Mar 12, 2008 11:48 am Usage of "Who all" |
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| "Till" is colloquial, or poetic. There's no difference. |
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Jamie (K)
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| #41 (permalink) Sat Jun 12, 2010 2:34 am who all |
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I am American and was born in the northeast and moved to richmond, va (part of the south) when i was young . I would say yes, that 'who all' is characteristic of the southern dialect, but now that y'all :) mention it, i do recognize it as part of the speech of indians from india that i have encountered here. here is the difference, apart from the accent:
americans (just in the south to my knowledge) would say "who all is coming?" whereas indians (just from what i've heard first hand) have the tendency to say "who all ARE coming?".
My first thought would be to say that "who all are" sounds foreign and unnatural, but now that I think about it further i might disagree with that as I feel like I have heard it from native speakers. Personally, though, I would say "who all is coming" despite the illogicalness of the using a singular verb with the plural 'who all'
(note the tendency to say 'where's the drinks you ordered?" vs 'where are the drinks you ordered?" or more often 'where's tom and dave?" these sentences are technically incorrect and many will not think twice about either saying or hearing such phrases.
At any rate, if somebody foreign, were to say "who all is coming" I doubt that anyone would think twice. In fact, without the southern accent, ordinary Americans would probably not identify that usage as southern even if it may well be.
what is interesting is that the addition of 'all' makes 'who' plural, as well as words like 'you' (you all --> y'all ex. what are y'all doing?) and 'what' (what all do we have to do?).
Foreigners may be worried about using nonstandard language (substandard? see usage note here: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/nonstandard) , but this usage, in my opinion, is not something to worry about, though 'y'all' definitely is and sounds southern.
This phenomenon is pretty interesting if you think about in the context of the evolution of language.
Note that we say "we all have to go to school, you (guys) all have to go to school; all of us have to go to school, all of you (guys) have to go to school; y'all all have to go to school, all (of) y'all have to go to school" when stressing ALL. From this you can see the semantic/pragmatic differences that have arisen in the word "all". |
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Saanderson
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| #42 (permalink) Sat Jun 12, 2010 3:01 am who all |
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| "Till" is not colloquial or poetic. It's standard and means the same thing as "until." I believe you are referring to 'til, which is colloquial. |
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Mordant
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