How do you define a native speaker?

Torsten · #106 (permalink) Sat Mar 15, 2008 14:15 pm *How do you define a native speaker?*

If two native speakers who collectively have about 70 years of ESL experience under their belt, tell me that the term "Internet fora" sounds funny, why would I still argue that "Internet fora" is right?
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Test Of English for International Communication
TOEIC Preparation & TOEIC Vocabulary

Molly · #107 (permalink) Sat Mar 15, 2008 14:18 pm *How do you define a native speaker?*

Torsten · #108 (permalink) Sat Mar 15, 2008 14:27 pm *How do you define a native speaker?*

It's a question of who you want to communicate with and how you come across if you say "Internet fora" instead of "Internet forums".
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Test Of English for International Communication
TOEIC Preparation & TOEIC Vocabulary

Molly · #109 (permalink) Sat Mar 15, 2008 14:32 pm *How do you define a native speaker?*

Or of when one would use each. Or of respecting variation, personal taste, etc. Do you use "whom" with all persons, for example?

Molly · #110 (permalink) Sat Mar 15, 2008 14:36 pm *How do you define a native speaker?*

Or, Jamie, were you referring to examples such as these?

There is infinitely more expression in the nose than common-observers appreciate.
There is infinitely more expression in his nose than common-observers appreciate.

Molly · #111 (permalink) Sat Mar 15, 2008 14:46 pm *How do you define a native speaker?*

Back to the main topic:

A “native speaker is said to speak his or her native language ‘natively’.”.(Richards 1992: 241)

But what do native-speakers mean by "natively" in such comments?

Jamie (K) · #112 (permalink) Sat Mar 15, 2008 14:56 pm *How do you define a native speaker?*

Lost_Soul · #113 (permalink) Sat Mar 15, 2008 16:58 pm *How do you define a native speaker?*

Ched133 · #114 (permalink) Sat Mar 15, 2008 18:45 pm *How do you define a native speaker?*

Torsten

I'm not trying to diminish the importance of learning from other people. There are things you can learn from books and things you can learn from listening and observation. Grammar rules are basic and they are taught in grammar schools. Is it used as a basic rule to guide us to start learning the language as well applying them in non-standard ways. The point i'm trying to make is that you don't need to explain the rules to speak correctly but you must know how to explain the rules if you are teaching the language.

Secondly, grammar rules are the foundation of any language and it is something that an entry level speaker should be learning in conjuction with other methods. You can't be great at a language by knowing the grammar rules alone. On the other hand, you can' be great at a langauge and not know the rules. Just like everything else we learn, we need to apply the basic rules we learn in school to real life situations.

Not knowing grammar rules will really mess you up in writing and complicated sentences.

Molly · #115 (permalink) Sat Mar 15, 2008 21:27 pm *How do you define a native speaker?*

Jamie (K) · #116 (permalink) Sat Mar 15, 2008 23:33 pm *How do you define a native speaker?*

Molly · #117 (permalink) Sun Mar 16, 2008 1:08 am *How do you define a native speaker?*

Jamie (K) · #118 (permalink) Sun Mar 16, 2008 1:09 am *How do you define a native speaker?*

Molly · #119 (permalink) Sun Mar 16, 2008 1:14 am *How do you define a native speaker?*

NinaZara · #120 (permalink) Sun Mar 16, 2008 5:16 am *How do you define a native speaker?*

Interlude

One famous Japanese kotowaza (proverb).

猿も木から落ちる saru mo ki kara ochiru.

Meaning: "Even monkeys fall from tree"

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