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 #122 (permalink) Sun Mar 16, 2008 10:06 am How do you define a native speaker? |
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I think she meant, "Even the experts make mistakes". Monkeys here symbolize experts. 
Correct me if I am wrong NinaZara.
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Daemon99
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| #123 (permalink) Sun Mar 16, 2008 13:08 pm How do you define a native speaker? |
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I think the English expression might read 'even monkeys fall from trees' or 'even a monkey can fall from a tree'.
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| #124 (permalink) Sun Mar 16, 2008 13:15 pm How do you define a native speaker? |
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Hi,
Just one other expression to add to the pot - Homer sometimes nods.
Alan
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| #125 (permalink) Sun Mar 16, 2008 15:06 pm How do you define a native speaker? |
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| Yes daemon99, the proverb means "Even experts make mistakes" but if somebody asks me who these monkeys are, I would say they can be both native speakers and expert users. |
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NinaZara
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| #126 (permalink) Sun Mar 16, 2008 15:41 pm How do you define a native speaker? |
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| daemon99 wrote: |
I think she meant, "Even the experts make mistakes". Monkeys here symbolize experts.
Correct me if I am wrong NinaZara. |
Experts would be...native-speakers? |
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Molly
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| #127 (permalink) Sun Mar 16, 2008 15:42 pm How do you define a native speaker? |
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| Torsten wrote: |
| I think the English expression might read 'even monkeys fall from trees' or 'even a monkey can fall from a tree'. |
or...
from the trees
from the tree
from his/her/their tree
etc. |
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Molly
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| #128 (permalink) Sun Mar 16, 2008 17:15 pm How do you define a native speaker? |
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| Molly wrote: |
| daemon99 wrote: |
I think she meant, "Even the experts make mistakes". Monkeys here symbolize experts.
Correct me if I am wrong NinaZara. |
Experts would be...native-speakers? |
I'd say native speakers lay down standarts. Only by them do we know for sure what sounds right and what wrong. If a book tells me that some expresson I have used for very long and consider absolutly natural in Russian is weird, I'd perhaps throw away the book, rather than change my way of saying that expression.
BTW, I don't put expressions like "He ain't a good writer" down for mistakes since they sound OK. |
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Lost_Soul
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| #129 (permalink) Mon Mar 17, 2008 7:01 am How do you define a native speaker? |
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| Quote: |
| I'd say native speakers lay down standarts. |
It's true that native speakers lay down standards. In fact, they have already laid them down.
It's just that the non-native speakers have to follow those standards, and by the way, standards do not change often.
So, I really don't think it's almost impossible for a non-native speaker to get used to the standards and eventually master the language.
I speak two languages very fluently, one is my mother-tongue and the other is the national language of my country--Hindi.
Honestly, no one can tell that I am a non-native speaker of Hindi unless they see my face which looks South Indian (Hindi is a North Indian language).
But there is a flip-side to it. Non-native speakers can't be as creative as native speakers when it comes to coining new phrases, coming up with impressive combination of phrases etc.
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Daemon99
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| #130 (permalink) Mon Mar 17, 2008 7:54 am How do you define a native speaker? |
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| Quote: |
| Non-native speakers can't be as creative as native speakers when it comes to coining new phrases, coming up with impressive combination of phrases etc. |
I agree. I like these:
| Quote: |
Creation of nonsensical, rhyming double-words to denote generality of idea or act, a 'totality' of the word's denotation, as in "No more ice-cream-fice-cream for you!", "Let's go have some chai-vai (tea, "tea and stuff")." or "There's a lot of this fighting-witing going on in the neighborhood." (Prevalent mainly in Hindi- and Punjabi-speaking states.)
Use of "baazi"/"baaji" or "-giri" for the same purpose, as in "business-baazi" or "cheating-giri." (Also prevalent mainly in Hindi-speaking states.)
Use of word "wallah" to denote occupation or 'doing of/involvement in doing' something, as in "The taxi-wallah overcharged me.", "The grocery-wallah sells fresh fruit." or "He's a real music-wallah: his CD collection is huge."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_English |
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Molly
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Lost_Soul
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| #132 (permalink) Mon Mar 17, 2008 8:42 am How do you define a native speaker? |
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Hi lost_soul (for lack of your real name and soul )
English aint my native language.  . If it were, I would host an ESL forum or fora of my own. I wouldn't be here
| Quote: |
Creation of nonsensical, rhyming double-words to denote generality of idea or act, a 'totality' of the word's denotation, as in "No more ice-cream-fice-cream for you!", "Let's go have some chai-vai (tea, "tea and stuff")." or "There's a lot of this fighting-witing going on in the neighborhood." (Prevalent mainly in Hindi- and Punjabi-speaking states.)
Use of "baazi"/"baaji" or "-giri" for the same purpose, as in "business-baazi" or "cheating-giri." (Also prevalent mainly in Hindi-speaking states.)
Use of word "wallah" to denote occupation or 'doing of/involvement in doing' something, as in "The taxi-wallah overcharged me.", "The grocery-wallah sells fresh fruit." or "He's a real music-wallah: his CD collection is huge."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_English |
There's another funny word that's slowly creeping its way into Indian English (mainly in the south). It's 'ya'. It sounds weird even to my Indian ears. 
It doesn't really mean anything. I guess it's a short form for 'yaar', which is the Hindi word for friend.
Here's an example of its usage.
"Had your lunch-ah?"
"No ya"
"Let's go na?"
"I have lots of work da. Didn't do it yesterday. You guys carry on"
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Daemon99
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| #133 (permalink) Mon Mar 17, 2008 9:09 am How do you define a native speaker? |
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Just crossed my mind:
Since we're so anxious and fussy about who's a native speaker and who's not, and we're so eager to pass ourselves off as ones, why don't we write essays on What would I do if I were a native speaker of the English language
As for my essay, I would be curt:
If I were a native speaker of English, I would certainly make the world a better place to live in. |
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Lost_Soul
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| #134 (permalink) Mon Mar 17, 2008 20:33 pm How do you define a native speaker? |
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| Molly wrote: |
Back to the main topic:
A “native speaker is said to speak his or her native language ‘natively’.”.(Richards 1992: 241)
But what do native-speakers mean by "natively" in such comments? |
Hi Molly,
I think you've already given the answer in this post of yours
| Quote: |
| BTW, lots of native-speakers tell me that "it was a marvelous party" sounds funny and they advise me to say "it was a great party". How should I respond? |
What does your feeling tell you when comparing marvellous to great?
To me it's a bit like comparing Picasso's Guernica to a really good sketch drawn by my talented cousin Aoibhíeann.
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| #135 (permalink) Mon Mar 17, 2008 22:26 pm How do you define a native speaker? |
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Is it not just like this that native speakers in general commit different kind of mistakes which mostly are after time being consider proper language ,
we foreigners are in that awful situation than even if we are speaking correct
we are eagerly being brush with "underdevelopment" by polite smile of better knowers.
In situation of international language (English pretended to be one) , I should be able to contribute to development of this language doing my every life activity.
For some reason I can't do why ....???
Jan |
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